Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Leporello]

I just did a search. Zero articles stating vinyl is superior to digital. But admittedly it was only a few minutes.

Forget streaming, vinyl sounds better — here's why

Vinyl may be an old-school analog format, but there are sound reasons why many audiophiles prefer it to digital

www.tomsguide.com

"If sound itself is analog, it's perhaps easier to understand why some feel that vinyl sounds better when the processes throughout the recording, manufacture, and playback are entirely analog. A record (or vinyl) is a faithful replica of the original analog audio waveform etched (or more correctly stamped) into a record's playing surface. "

Is the sound on vinyl records better than on CDs or DVDs?

CDs are certainly more widespread these days, but you've probably heard at least one audiophile insist that records have a better sound quality when it comes to their favorite music. How can this be?

electronics.howstuffworks.com

"A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. The output of a record player is analog. It can be fed directly to your amplifier with no conversion.

This means that the waveforms from a vinyl recording can be much more accurate, and that can be heard in the richness of the sound."

Recently there have been quite a few articles arguing that at least vinyl is certainly better than any lossy streaming (e.g. Spotify). But based on what we know about the best lossy codecs this is not the case.

 

[CherylJosie]

No doubt. But also true for the best set up and highest performing TTs. It is inherent in the medium.

The most helpful enhancement I found besides direct drive was linear tracking

 

[computer-audiophile]

People ascribe a lot of differences to turntables, tonearms, etc

Yes, you can count me in. And I add cartridges, (styli), phono preamps...

That's why I don't consider your sound recordings as a reference and didn't feel the need to listen to it. Besides, such sound samples are mostly pieces of music I don't like to listen to. I don't want to be disrespectful or unpolite, but this is what I think about it.

 

[Valentino]

To try to give a snippet of an answer to the OP:

My oldest son is 21 and of course of the streaming generation, but he has also studied music for three years, his graduation main instrument classical song.
He started buying LPs a couple of years ago. It seems to me that if there is a particular album he likes he wants the large physical format with the artwork. On screen doesn't really cut it. Also he likes the ritual of playing an LP, and of course that it's actually possible to see the recorded music on the disc. No other medium does that.

As for myself at 58 I never sold the LPs I bought between say 1978 and 1990. I always kept a record player. First the Rega Planar 3 i bought in 1986, later a used Sota Sapphire with the weird Well tempered arm, and now I have a Thorens TD 125 Mk. II that turned 50 this spring, with a new Bokrand AS-230 which is made from parts of an Ortofon AS-212 from a Telefunken 500 turntable. I do not have a record player because it sounds better. It's a pretty damn flawed format. Data proves it. But It can sound pretty good.
As for the "suspension of disbelief" I put that in the same trash can as "high end". Go to the concert hall. Make a recording. Take it home. It's never the same. Never ever, even if you name is John Parry. No format will do away with the approximation. Forget it and have a drink. It may help.
I like playing records. I like finding old well kept records. I like cleaning them even. I like dropping the needle. I like trying to get the best out of this thing. I keep and play my father's classical LPs, some of the are DG first issue German pressings. And when I see these young girls browsing albums in the local used vinyl store, being ready to pay 10 times more for them than when they were new 30-50 years ago, I also wonder if they can play them at all.

Vinyl, it's packaging, and the machine that plays it together have a tactility you do not find in any other commercial music carrier. I think that's it.

 

[mglobe]

Because I think critics and defenders here are not always presenting concise and fully explored responses, I'm thinking, wouldn't it be good to begin to establish a sort of baseline from which to engage?

Here is a recording I made a few years ago as well as a recent digital remaster of the track. The recording is not my best work--my goal now is museum grade archive quality (seriously, I am trying to preserve music)--but that's perfect for this situation. It is closer to a recording anyone can make. The vinyl recording should show a lot of the limitations of the medium, including crosstalk. Speed is very close but not exact either. There were no de-clicking filters run. I now measure cartridges and can optimize loading and even EQ if I need to and am using a flat phono preamplifier and applying perfect digital RIAA. So it is as close to a pure signal as possible. Nonetheless this was recorded with a very good cartridge and with a known phono preamp measured here. The turntable--from the 1980s--cost me $250 4 years ago. Loudness normalization set to -16 LUFS. To be upfront, it is a track near the outer groove, which is easier on cartridges. And so maybe something like this can be helpful for us to understand what someone means when they say something like records sound euphonic.

PASIO - Google Drive

drive.google.com

What sounds different or is so fucking awful here? And to put my chips on the table and show why this thread can be exhausting to me: I am 100% a digital person. I only like the medium for archiving. I archive records and I archive historical performance through measurements. So I have absolutely no ulterior motives to defend the medium. I just want people to get the most they can from the medium and stop throwing money away.

And one final thing, one argument missed is that we generally listen to records in rooms that are terrible for audio. This makes a tremendous difference. I am extremely lucky to have an excellent, state of the art system that follows the science and I know for a fact that I cannot get the best of it in my room, even with DSP/room correction. I don't have a room designed for audio with sound proofing. My Benchmark AHB2 is completely wasted in my family room. This is made extremely clear when I listen to reference quality and Harman tuned headphones. The difference between records and digital cannot be more clear than when heard on reference headphones. There is no comparison. But in normal rooms the difference, while clearly there, is never captured fully. And the pictures of the rooms users use has me thinking that a lot of criticism is exaggerated and cynical if we are talking about real world use.

I will take down the link in a week or so so if you are interested grab them now.

Ok I finally listened to all three WAV files. I"m terrible at these sort of things, and pretty much always flunk A/B tests on sampling rate. Maybe 68 yo ears exposed to rock & roll and race cars is my excuse. Anyway, listening on AirPods Pro 2's I had a hard time hearing a significant difference. I preferred #3, but by a small margin. I'd love to see this done as an anonymous poll as suggested previously. I think more folks would participate. BTW, thank you for doing this.

 

[mglobe]

I thought it would be interesting to see just how prevalent the use of various sources for music are here.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...es-do-you-use-for-music-in-your-system.47061/

 

[Salt]

To try to give a snippet of an answer to the OP:

My oldest son is 21 and of course of the streaming generation, but he has also studied music for three years, his graduation main instrument classical song.
He started buying LPs a couple of years ago. It seems to me that if there is a particular album he likes he wants the large physical format with the artwork. On screen doesn't really cut it. Also he likes the ritual of playing an LP, and of course that it's actually possible to see the recorded music on the disc. No other medium does that.

As for myself at 58 I never sold the LPs I bought between say 1978 and 1990. I always kept a record player. First the Rega Planar 3 i bought in 1986, later a used Sota Sapphire with the weird Well tempered arm, and now I have a Thorens TD 125 Mk. II that turned 50 this spring, with a new Bokrand AS-230 which is made from parts of an Ortofon AS-212 from a Telefunken 500 turntable. I do not have a record player because it sounds better. It's a pretty damn flawed format. Data proves it. But It can sound pretty good.
As for the "suspension of disbelief" I put that in the same trash can as "high end". Go to the concert hall. Make a recording. Take it home. It's never the same. Never ever, even if you name is John Parry. No format will do away with the approximation. Forget it and have a drink. It may help.
I like playing records. I like finding old well kept records. I like cleaning them even. I like dropping the needle. I like trying to get the best out of this thing. I keep and play my father's classical LPs, some of the are DG first issue German pressings. And when I see these young girls browsing albums in the local used vinyl store, being ready to pay 10 times more for them than when they were new 30-50 years ago, I also wonder if they can play them at all.

Vinyl, it's packaging, and the machine that plays it together have a tactility you do not find in any other commercial music carrier. I think that's it.

See Your points and agree.
My youngest buys vinyl that is not available otherwise (some techno-grunge-whatever ... in my ears uggly ...). Maybe it's haptic additional that attracts.
I buy vinyl explicitly to support the musicians, since streaming and CD does not give them really much money. Some I buy additionally on CD for listening in the car.
But back on topic:
For vinyl I use EMT 938 broadcast DD TT refurbished with TSD 15 SFL (retipped and refurbished), for digital Eversolo DMP-6, amp is purifi.
After a hard day's work guess which source I prefer .... harmonics can be very relaxing and sounding great and realistic.
It's all between the ears of the listener, and if there satisfaction and enyoinment settles it's all fine.
No reason to grab for forks and knifes ...

 

[computer-audiophile]

For vinyl I use EMT 938 broadcast DD TT refurbished with TSD 15 SFL (retipped and refurbished),

This is a very good professional turntable - congratulation!

 

[MattHooper]

To try to give a snippet of an answer to the OP:

My oldest son is 21 and of course of the streaming generation, but he has also studied music for three years, his graduation main instrument classical song.
He started buying LPs a couple of years ago. It seems to me that if there is a particular album he likes he wants the large physical format with the artwork. On screen doesn't really cut it. Also he likes the ritual of playing an LP, and of course that it's actually possible to see the recorded music on the disc. No other medium does that.

As for myself at 58 I never sold the LPs I bought between say 1978 and 1990. I always kept a record player. First the Rega Planar 3 i bought in 1986, later a used Sota Sapphire with the weird Well tempered arm, and now I have a Thorens TD 125 Mk. II that turned 50 this spring, with a new Bokrand AS-230 which is made from parts of an Ortofon AS-212 from a Telefunken 500 turntable. I do not have a record player because it sounds better. It's a pretty damn flawed format. Data proves it. But It can sound pretty good.
As for the "suspension of disbelief" I put that in the same trash can as "high end". Go to the concert hall. Make a recording. Take it home. It's never the same. Never ever, even if you name is John Parry. No format will do away with the approximation. Forget it and have a drink. It may help.
I like playing records. I like finding old well kept records. I like cleaning them even. I like dropping the needle. I like trying to get the best out of this thing. I keep and play my father's classical LPs, some of the are DG first issue German pressings. And when I see these young girls browsing albums in the local used vinyl store, being ready to pay 10 times more for them than when they were new 30-50 years ago, I also wonder if they can play them at all.

A report from the front! Excellent.

Vinyl, it's packaging, and the machine that plays it together have a tactility you do not find in any other commercial music carrier. I think that's it.

I agree that is a large part of it.

I'd only add that given the large number of people buying vinyl now, motivations will vary quite a lot and narrowing the phenomenon down to only one or two points will necessarily leave some parts of the explanation out. It's a bit like "Can anyone explain the phenomenon of "Audiophiles?" Well, if you are going to try to get behind the motivation of audiophiles, while you can point to some commonalities, the motivations will be all over the map in terms of what is motivating particular audiophiles, what they are seeking, what they are getting out of it.

 

[egellings]

But digital glare!

/OK, I'll go away

O-o-oh, and when I listen to a CD or other digital source, my arms go weak and I cannot raise them!

 

[egellings]

A report from the front! Excellent.



I agree that is a large part of it.

I'd only add that given the large number of people buying vinyl now, motivations will vary quite a lot and narrowing the phenomenon down to only one or two points will necessarily leave some parts of the explanation out. It's a bit like "Can anyone explain the phenomenon of "Audiophiles?" Well, if you are going to try to get behind the motivation of audiophiles, while you can point to some commonalities, the motivations will be all over the map in terms of what is motivating particular audiophiles, what they are seeking, what they are getting out of it.

Stereotyping--great for classifying audio equipment--not so great for people.

 

[NIN]

As it has been stated again and again there is no cult belief that vinyl is superior. Or that is superior for that fact.. Why you and others can't get that through your heads is sad.

The only sad thing is you. Get a life.

 

[NIN]

Thinking through my own reasons for returning to (sonically inferior) vinyl (occasionally)…

A good list.

The emotional reason should not be underestimated.

 

[MattHooper]

Question for those who are not vinyl enthusiasts on this thread (or really, anyone):

Even if you hold digital sound to be both technically and sonically superior overall:

Would you agree that vinyl can sound excellent (or impressive, or some such positive descriptor)? That one can experience "high quality" sound on a high quality sound system, from a good recording/vinyl pressing?



(Since we are rating the sonic perception of the sound, there is necessarily subjectivity entailed in answering the question).

 

[Salt]

Agree.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Would you agree that vinyl can sound excellent...

+1

 

[Valentino]

It can at least sound very good! Excellent is too big a word for me. I’ll go with Pretty Damn Great.

 

[USER]

I believe that it can be good enough through speakers in a "normal" room. To the point that I would feel like a troll if I held it against someone for being perfectly happy with the medium for the rest of their lives. Better: I believe it can let one appreciate an excellent recording. But for me this is with proper set-up and by following the science. I'd probably hate most people's set-ups, however (lol), as I do not believe most people follow or don't have the means to follow audio science. And that's not fair to the medium when pit against another. And that's not fair of me to think of such a set-up as representative of what the medium can do. And I think my samples can help demonstrate what I mean.

With most good AB tests of things close to each other I can often differentiate but I try to be honest with myself enough to admit that I often cannot make a value judgement. Here I wouldn't go THAT far but still it is close enough to illuminate things for me. I chose the track because it plays with quiet, sound stage, instrument position, etc. I can tell during the quiet moments in the middle which is vinyl and which is digital, but IN MY ROOM it is not a make or break difference. And if I never heard the digital I could believe it is simply the recording. I don't write this to brag but to make a point: I am using Revel F226Bes, subs, Benchmark AHB2, miniDSP SHD with room correction. I am adding as little as possible to the sound and this helps me be more confident in knowing that I am not introducing anything to alter the recording and can make a sound judgement about it. My system has practically no distortion (not that that is needed with vinyl) and I am allowing a wide soundstage (Revel) for things to bloom. What is striking to me is that I am not hearing the limits of crosstalk as the sound stage width, instrument separation, etc. sound about as good to me in the vinyl version. I really can't say I hear the approximately approximately -48 to -40dB distortion in the most audible areas of the FR but honestly I think the room is covering it up to the point that I am not hearing anything I can call added warmth or euphonics. The bass sounds as deep. The dynamics of the bangs, the bells, and the left and right channel interplay sound pretty much the same to me. And this is not a crap recording. Haroumi Hosono produced it. He's as good as it gets.

BUT ON MY HEADPHONES - reviewed here and shown to have amongst the lowest noise and distortion and with an ASR created EQ - the crackling on the opening absolutely kills it for me. I can hear far more pops. What is important is that I CANNOT hear the crackling on my stereo, at least from my distance of 10 feet. I encourage everyone to compare. I'm not afraid to put myself out there. Something like this is the real value of the sample. I really do believe that a lot of critics use the known limits of hearing to judge the medium while skipping real world use limits. Those limits are much more evident in the enclosed space of a headphone. To me vinyl is not meant to be heard on a SOTA headphone set-up--but isn't that obvious? Speakers and headphones are two different things and that's what I mean when I say people live in theory land. (If you knew me you would laugh at me for saying that.) It doesn't mean you are wrong but the world is seldom up to it. So I encourage everyone: listen to the samples. Listen on your stereo and on headphones. You may disagree and you may hear the issues on a stereo more than me, you may have a better room, but you will know more about my limits and experience and likely treat me more like a human being than dismissing me and everyone else altogether. You can say I can hear that issue a bit more than he can, but he's not crazy, I can see where he is coming from. And before anyone responds with...but this one example doesn't represent all vinyl. Well, its relatively easy to fully capture vinyl performance. Let's hear what you are talking about. I'd be curious to know/hear what is considered a medium specific issue that can't be fixed with proper use. Maybe it can help me re-evaluate my samples. But please be able to discuss the set-up and how it relates to audio science.

And to add one thing: I encourage vinyl lovers to scrutinize the sample on a SOTA headphone set-up to better know what people are criticizing. Technically they are right.

 

[levimax]

Question for those who are not vinyl enthusiasts on this thread (or really, anyone):

Even if you hold digital sound to be both technically and sonically superior overall:

Would you agree that vinyl can sound excellent (or impressive, or some such positive descriptor)? That one can experience "high quality" sound on a high quality sound system, from a good recording/vinyl pressing?



(Since we are rating the sonic perception of the sound, there is necessarily subjectivity entailed in answering the question).

yes

 

[r042wal]

Question for those who are not vinyl enthusiasts on this thread (or really, anyone):

Even if you hold digital sound to be both technically and sonically superior overall:

Would you agree that vinyl can sound excellent (or impressive, or some such positive descriptor)? That one can experience "high quality" sound on a high quality sound system, from a good recording/vinyl pressing?



(Since we are rating the sonic perception of the sound, there is necessarily subjectivity entailed in answering the question).

It sounds 'different' but still has it's own great sound qualities. I am all digital (Aurender N100, Qobuz, CD-ROM & SACD), but if I had the room and the money, I would add a turntable.