Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[ocinn]

I am not sure the word lossless as it is usually used in the digital world can even be applied to analog. What would lossless (or lossy) mean for analog?

lossless in analog means live, acoustic/non-amplified performance

 

[USER]

I indulged in some musical nostalgia in purchasing an album I used to spin a lot when I was young and in to jazz/fusion stuff: Lee Ritenour - The Captain's Journey

The LP, bought through discogs, arrived this week and I gave it a listen last night. A bit of noise at the beginning lead in, but once music started background record noise didn't seem there at all for the most part. It didn't have a lot of low end on some tracks, but was overall very vivid, spacious, palpable and alive sounding.

Afterwards out of curiosity I found the album on Tidal and listened again to lots of the tracks, streamed from my DAC. It sounded a bit smoother on digital, whereas the vinyl was a little more "crunchy on top." The digital was a bit more timbrally nuanced, with occasionally the sense of slightly deeper bass. I could totally see someone preferring the digital. But for me after a while I kept hearing things and thinking "I could have sworn this sounded better - in the sense of more "there" and alive - in my previous listening session. I put on the vinyl and went back and forth and, yup, the vinyl just sounded to me slightly more "real" and "there." The drums and percussion especially. When the fusion drummer was working riffs around his toms, on the digital the timbre of each drum was a teeny bit more distinct, but laid back in the mix. Whereas on the vinyl, the drums sounded more vivid, solid and "there," more real in that sense - they just popped out of the mix with a real sense of "happening now" presence that made the digital sound a little dull and asleep in comparison. Given that trade off, I preferred the vinyl.

These experiences, in my perception, happen often enough that they form part of the motivation for my personal "vinyl renaissance."

"Come at me bro."

Care to listen to the samples I posted on a regular stereo? My opinions on this matter have been made explicitly clear in recent pages so I am not arguing any position here. I'm sincerely interested in your thoughts.

Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Please can you explain? They are referring to the increased dynamic range on the vinyl version versus digital, due to the digital version being subjected to dynamic compression.

audiosciencereview.com

(I know I am copying and pasting, .)

 

[MattHooper]

Care to listen to the samples I posted on a regular stereo? My opinions on this matter have been made explicitly clear in recent pages so I am not arguing any position here. I'm sincerely interested in your thoughts.

Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Please can you explain? They are referring to the increased dynamic range on the vinyl version versus digital, due to the digital version being subjected to dynamic compression.

audiosciencereview.com

(I know I am copying and pasting, .)

I appreciate that you did the work of recording/uploading the files. However, they won't play in any of my browsers and I'm very cautious about downloading any files on the interwebs (even though I'm on a mac), so prefer not to go that route.

 

[egellings]

And it doesn't of course - for well understood reasons. It would take a lot of willing suspension of disbelief to get accustomed to the sound of vinyl.

True for a poorly set up or performing TT setup.

 

[USER]

I appreciate that you did the work of recording/uploading the files. However, they won't play in any of my browsers and I'm very cautious about downloading any files on the interwebs (even though I'm on a mac), so prefer not to go that route.

Is there a method of sharing audio that you know works for you?

 

[USER]

I just uploaded them as .wav files and they stream on the browser for me.

 

[afinepoint]

There have actually been many articles in both the audiophile and mainstream press touting the superiority of vinyl over digital (a quick Google search will surface plenty). Those that I’ve read are not based in science and are mostly marketing fluff pieces to take advantage of the resurgence of vinyl, which to me is annoying in the same way that cable and other snake oil claims are annoying.

I just did a search. Zero articles stating vinyl is superior to digital. But admittedly it was only a few minutes. There are many articles discussing the merits of vinyl. Of course i didn't reach the end of the Internet nor will I try. It's all subjective and objective. You are trying to make a case for something that's not there. I agree there's lots of fake claims out there. But I have never found a credible source saying vinyl is a superior platform. And again it's that person's ear not yours.

And it really doesn't matter. If someone does - and I haven't seen anyone making that statement, believe vinyl is superior who cares? I'm sure if one digs deep enough you can find one but really who cares? Who cares what Google or the Internet says? I can find opinions to support any claim. As well as fabricate them.

Why does it bother you so? Why do you care about a resurgence in vinyl? You mention it like it's a problem. I and likely others don't understand this opinionated obsession you (and others) have to purge the non existing belief that there's some kind of digital blasphemy being purportrated by the vinyl crowd.

We're all audio lovers here. Let it go.

 

[MattHooper]

I just uploaded them as .wav files and they stream on the browser for me.

Ok the wav files played for me in the browser. I gave a listen. All the files sound nice to me.

 

[USER]

It would be helpful to know a little more than that. Is it clear what is vinyl? If so, how can you tell? Is it at all close? (Beyond clicks and pops.) The sort of stuff you describe of your own music. Can you use any of the descriptors you used above? Is it euphonic? It's not the same set-up, I know, but we are trying to have a thread about a particular medium. It shouldn't be a free for all or else there is no reason for all of this in this forum of all places. Then all one can say is that they like their random set-ups, and can't speak about this medium really. Surely there is something that is shared by listeners of vinyl. What is medium specific to the best of our ability to say? It's hard to be the first to say something here but you've never had a hard time with subjective reviews. Think of it as that.

If nothing else, it's a good way for people to begin to understand how we each experience this particular music and can compare and adjust our descriptions. If you have the means you can even record the album you were just discussing. A lot of us have access to the same streaming version and can compare. There has to be a point where we actually try to come to some sort of shared understanding instead of endless recourses to one up each other in the cheapest ways possible. What good are random anecdotes one way and a list of theoretical limits from people that haven't heard a record in 20 years the other way?

 

[Zensō]

I just did a search. Zero articles stating vinyl is superior to digital. Of course i didn't reach the end of the Internet nor will I try. It's all subjective and objective. You are trying to make a case for something that's not there.

Make up a problem. Try to convince others there's a problem. Offer advice or a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Look smart.. And it really doesn't matter. If someone does - and I haven't seen anyone making that statement, believe vinyl is superior who cares? I'm sure if one digs deep enough you can find one but really who cares? Who cares what Google or the Internet says? I can find opinions to support any claim. As well as fabricate them.

Why does it bother you so? Why do you care about a resurgence in vinyl? Did some dude with a turntable steal your significant other? I and likely others don't understand this opinionated obsession you (and others) have to purge the non existing belief that there's some kind of digital blasphemy being purportrated by the vinyl crowd.

We're all audio lovers here. Let it go.

I couldn’t actually care less if someone does or doesn’t like vinyl. Last I checked we’re all just wasting time here chatting about nothing of significance. Speaking of making up a problem that doesn’t exist…

 

[MattHooper]

It would be helpful to know a little more than that. Is it clear what is vinyl? If so, how can you tell? Is it at all close? (Beyond clicks and pops.) The sort of stuff you describe of your own music. Can you use any of the descriptors you used above? Is it euphonic? It's not the same set-up, I know, but we are trying to have a thread about a particular medium. It shouldn't be a free for all or else there is no reason for all of this in this forum of all places. Then all one can say is that they like their random set-ups, and can't speak about this medium really. Surely there is something that is shared by listeners of vinyl. What is medium specific to the best of our ability to say? It's hard to be the first to say something here but you've never had a hard time with subjective reviews. Think of it as that.

If nothing else, it's a good way for people to begin to understand how we each experience this particular music and can compare and adjust our descriptions. If you have the means you can even record the album you were just discussing. A lot of us have access to the same streaming version and can compare. There has to be a point where we actually try to come to some sort of shared understanding. What good are random anecdotes one way and a list of theoretical limits from people that haven't heard a record in 20 years the other way?

I only listened on my desktop. I didn't find a major sonic difference. If pressed, I'd guess that the Pasio2 file was the digital and Pasio3 was vinyl, as the 2 seemed to have a bit more of what I hear from digital - seems just a tad tighter and cleaner sounding. But at least on my desktop it's really, really close.

 

[USER]

I only listened on my desktop. I didn't find a major sonic difference. If pressed, I'd guess that the Pasio2 file was the digital and Pasio3 was vinyl, as the 2 seemed to have a bit more of what I hear from digital - seems just a tad tighter and cleaner sounding. But at least on my desktop it's really, really close.

When you can try it on your real system. I'm not egging you on, it would be good to have an opinion as to whether someone thinks it still sounds very close on it. What happens if you do, which is possible and entirely in your rights? Then someone interested has the opportunity to listen to it and compare instead of going by a random post that says you have to suspend your disbelief. They may disagree, but they have a better basis to understand you. I promise I'll provide my opinions later but as the poster I feel I should wait.

 

[Newman]

As I've sort of said before, I don't get the heartburn over some resurgence of vinyl. Who the hell does it hurt?

Like many I started with LPs as that was the only choice for most. Records from my childhood to my mid-30s when CDs came around. Even then I still played some LPs. I didn't want to invest the $$ for another decent TT, the space to display/use the LPs, or the time/inconvenience to play them. (My age is pretty easy to guess)

I sold my entire collection to a guy in Chicago sometime around 2010 or so via Audiogon's marketplace. I miss the cover art and notes but not anything else. I understand folks who had and still have a collection and play them.

You like LPs, good on 'ya. You don't? Same thing, good on 'ya. Leave those that like and enjoy them the heck alone.

Exactly! I don’t get it either. A is thread opened by someone clearly bemused by the sales revival, and others share their bemusement too. Nothing to get heartburn over.

But then those who are not bemused by it start to insist, “OK, that’s enough. Shut it down.” Like you say, who the hell does it hurt?

 

[MattHooper]

When you can try it on your real system. I'm not egging you on, it would be good to have an opinion as to whether someone thinks it still sounds very close on it. What happens if you do, which is possible and entirely in your rights? Then someone interested has the opportunity to listen to it and compare instead of going by a random post that says you have to suspend your disbelief. They may disagree, but they have a better basis to understand you. I promise I'll provide my opinions later but as the poster I feel I should wait.

I'd need the file to play on my phone to do that (and stream to my system), but the files won't play on my iphone browsers.

 

[GXAlan]

When you can try it on your real system. I'm not egging you on, it would be good to have an opinion as to whether someone thinks it still sounds very close on it. What happens if you do, which is possible and entirely in your rights? Then someone interested has the opportunity to listen to it and compare instead of going by a random post that says you have to suspend your disbelief. They may disagree, but they have a better basis to understand you. I promise I'll provide my opinions later but as the poster I feel I should wait.

You can create a poll with a blind vinyl test if you’d like. That might get more members to vote.

 

[USER]

You can create a poll with a blind vinyl test if you’d like. That might get more members to vote.

I don't expect much response to try. These kinds of tests usually fail to get responses. Especially properly done cartridge comparisons. When push comes to shove most vinyl users refuse to even entertain the thought of popping their world view bubbles.

I don't have anyone in mind in saying this, just speaking from experience. I'd rather interest come organically without pushing any agenda. And I'd rather just do it now as I certainly won't be sticking around for the next 170 pages. However, it would be funny to call it "vinyl, is it really that bad (on your stereo)?"

 

[Axo1989]

lossless in analog means live, acoustic/non-amplified performance

Not a bad answer.

(I would have asked the same question)

 

[Newman]

Thank you for this quote from Dr Toole. You made my day.

Always happy to make someone’s day! Like Dr Toole says in the quote, vinyl only sounds impressive once people achieve a level of self-desensitising great enough to filter out the audible badness.

No one here is, or should, argue that Digital is not technically better, more practical and less expensive. It is obvious, or should be, to anyone. It is that fact that makes this thread so intriguing.

Technically and audibly.

With digital being so vastly superior, why have we witnessed, for the last 10 years, a steady vinyl revival? Are those people mad, as some here seem to believe? No, they are not, that is a simplistic, childish way to react .

I have not seen anyone question anyone’s sanity. I have seen rationality questioned, because for many it is an emotional choice. I have seen people here try to claim emotion-based choices are rational too, but that is not consistent with the normal definition of rational: separating reason from emotion.

Some things are at play, this thread among all the noise, is probably the best place on the internet to have an adult exchange on trying to find out what the mechanism fueling this revival are.

Vinyl listening is a valid high end medium that provide musical listening pleasure to thousands of happy users around the globe, apparently, the numbers of those listeners is growing as part of the vinyl revival.

The correct definition of “high end” is expensive, so yes, vinyl is definitely a “high end” medium.

But people in the audio hobby often say “high end” when they mean high performance. If you meant performance and not price, then I can point you to a lot of posters here who will insist that you never said that or meant that, indeed, you couldn’t have, because they keep saying nobody is saying vinyl is high performance.

That you like listening to vinyl occasionally, like me, most of the time or none at all, has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
"Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?"

Please tell that to all the people here who want to make it all about how much and how often they like listening to vinyl! In fact, the more I talk to the actual topic of the thread, the more people start questioning out loud how much and how often I like listening to vinyl. Perhaps the thread has been hijacked?

 

[Axo1989]

I don't expect much response to try. These kinds of tests usually fail. Especially cartridge comparisons. When push comes to shove most vinyl users refuse to even entertain the thought of popping their world view bubbles.

I'm don't have anyone in mind in saying this, just speaking from experience. I'd rather interest come organically without pushing any agenda. However, it would be funny to call it "vinyl, is it really that bad (on your stereo)?"

I think people on this forum are more curious/more likely to try things. OG vinyl was before my time, but I found @IPunchCholla's vinyl vs digital comparison in an earlier thread fun/interesting (as I mentioned upthread here, there were sonic differences, some in the vinyl selection's favour, some not).

Edit: I haven't listened to your samples though, the link wanted a Google login when I tried it.

 

[MattHooper]

I don't expect much response to try. These kinds of tests usually fail. Especially cartridge comparisons. When push comes to shove most vinyl users refuse to even entertain the thought of popping their world view bubbles.

I'm don't have anyone in mind in saying this, just speaking from experience. I'd rather interest come organically without pushing any agenda. However, it would be funny to call it "vinyl, is it really that bad (on your stereo)?"

I'm not sure whose bubble would be popped. I think many vinyl enthusiasts in this thread say a good vinyl rip can sound close in quality to a digital version. It wouldn't be bubble-popping at all to encounter such a thing. I've heard it before in vinyl rip vs digital versions, and it seems to be the case in this one too (from my initial listen).

Of course when it comes to vinyl playback I think the best one could get from a test like this is whether this particular vinyl rip example sounds close to digital or not. And that it would be an example that digital doesn't always sound "way better" than vinyl (depending on how one hears these files).

Given all the variables it would be hard to go beyond that. You have variations in turntables/arms/cartridges, cartridge adjustment, phono stages and their settings etc. So, generally, vinyl and digital may sound more different one set up, less so on another.