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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Which ESLs? Sounds nice!
Thanks for your full reply to my anti-vinyl screed. BTW, I think presbycusis (older persons' hearing loss) can befall a person who has not abused their hearing. All audiophiles should get a trustworthy test (not always found in neighbourhood hearing aid stores). A pretty good warble-tone web test that can be used with REW-EQ'ed speakers (and one ear plug) is


Here's a picture of my DIY panels (XOs are 130 and 4k Hz) made from Dayton-Wright cells in 1978. I'm trying to sell it now as part of old-persons' downsizing. Woofing done by a 17-foot labyrinth and a large sealed box.
 

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Thanks for the illustration. I always think it's good to see photos of the setups used, to get a more complete picture of the story.
 
Sonically, audibly? That was clearly my point. What else could I post when Matt deliberately, emphatically, admitted inferiority but in ways that avoid the issue of audibility?

Yes, at least twice in the past day from what I read. I can't recall ever seeing a regular post otherwise; at least no one recently.

Are you saying this thread was created by someone who believes vinyl sounds top-shelf and who wished to celebrate that? It wasn't. It would be trolling if that was the intention and topic of this thread. But it isn't.

You need to be a little more careful with your choice of insults. At least take enough care to not be insulting and wrong at the same time.

The thread topic has nothing to do with the behavior, and it's not an insult. I call it as I see it, and I'm certainly no the only one who sees it. The regulars know where vinyl stands and have said so many, many, many times. You appear to not be able to stand people on this forum talking about something that isn't "SOTA". Why is that?

I remember when, in this thread, a classical music lover of many great LPs released in the 1950s to 1960s, stated that the CD reissues mostly have inferior sound quality, and that an excellent example of the difference was the Mercury Living Presence recordings.

Which seems all very uncontroversial, probably the mastering, right? But there was a fly in the ointment: Wilma Cozart Fine oversaw the production of the MLP CDs and clearly stated that “the CDs got closer to the master tape than the vinyl ever could”. Oops.

But you know what his response was when this was pointed out? To insist that WC Fine sold out! That she's lying through her back teeth to sell CDs!

This, dear reader, is the level of denial that taints this thread and this topic of vinyl sound quality.

That, and denying that anyone ever said here that vinyl sounds better.

PS I found the link to the original.

You're bringing up a post that someone made a year ago and are trying to press it into service in your argument of recent happenings, where no one has made a similar claim in this current round of discussion. Oops.

You're also attempting to combat someone's subjective impression with another persons subjective impression (anecdote vs. anecdote). Oops.

I don't believe when people have said "anyone ever" they literally mean anyone ever. I've recently clarified with "regulars", as I've seen others do. I can't recall another thread where anyone has had to be this pedantic about context, but so be it.

P.S. I would be inclined to believe Wilma's assertion is true, but when someone wants to so badly deal with "sound waves" only, anecdotes cannot be used as evidence. Cuts both ways.

What are your demands? What satisfies you that we understand what we're talking about? It's not this straw man, so what is it?
 
Thanks for the illustration. I always think it's good to see photos of the setups used, to get a more complete picture of the story.
Ignore the upper trace.

L and R panels, no XO, no EQ, no DSP, just Kenwood class G amp from 1980's driven by my 2010 laptop headphone output. Looks like a whole lot of the band is a whole lot below 1% THD+N (-60 dB), and would be better if they weren't loudly renovating the house next door.
 

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Auditory masking is a natural perceptual phenomenon…it has assisted our musical enjoyment by suppressing audience noises during live performances and, over several decades, by rendering LPs more pleasurable. If we talk here about compressing data, it would be fair to say that LPs perform “data expansion,” adding unmusical information in the form of crosstalk, noise, and distortions of many kinds. More comes off of the LP than was in the original master tape. However, because of those very same masking phenomena that allow perceptual data reduction systems to work, the noises and distortions are perceptually attenuated. So successful is this perceptual noise and distortion reduction, that good LPs played on good systems can still sound impressive.
Thank you for this quote from Dr Toole. You made my day. :)
No one here is, or should, argue that Digital is not technically better, more practical and less expensive. It is obvious, or should be, to anyone. It is that fact that makes this thread so intriguing.

With digital being so vastly superior, why have we witnessed, for the last 10 years, a steady vinyl revival? Are those people mad, as some here seem to believe? No, they are not, that is a simplistic, childish way to react :facepalm:.

Some things are at play, this thread among all the noise, is probably the best place on the internet to have an adult exchange on trying to find out what the mechanism fueling this revival are.

Vinyl listening is a valid high end medium that provide musical listening pleasure to thousands of happy users around the globe, apparently, the numbers of those listeners is growing as part of the vinyl revival.

That you like listening to vinyl occasionally, like me, most of the time or none at all, has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
"Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?"
 
Ignore the upper trace.

L and R panels, no XO, no EQ, no DSP, just Kenwood class G amp from 1980's driven by my 2010 laptop headphone output. Looks like a whole lot of the band is a whole lot below 1% THD+N (-60 dB), and would be better if they weren't loudly renovating the house next door.
This is a quite uncommon Setup :)
I see the bottleneck at the headphone output of the Laptop. A cheap Chinese DAC of today would provide a major update.
 
This is an interesting article that contains data about vinyl sales and demographics:

 
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Your mentioning of the music files reminds me
Um, reminds me of something too: some ancient vinyl test records on my little SD chip. Do I want to really irritate the vinyl enthusiasts by measuring the distortion, albeit a few transformations since transcribed to CD with a Denon MC cartridge many years ago? Does vinyl THD add warmth and spaciousness to choral singing?

Or better, can somebody please post (or re-post) published THD tests for vinyl?
 
Um, reminds me of something too: some ancient vinyl test records on my little SD chip. Do I want to really irritate the vinyl enthusiasts by measuring the distortion, albeit a few transformations since transcribed to CD with a Denon MC cartridge many years ago? Does vinyl THD add warmth and spaciousness to choral singing?

Or better, can somebody please post (or re-post) published THD tests for vinyl?

I see no reason at all why publishing some vinyl measurements would irritate any of the vinyl enthusiast here.

We are all quite aware vinyl has distortion.

It’s only annoying when anybody thinks they have to keep reminding us (over and over and over).

But if you want to show some distortion, go for it. Though it seems to me that might be more pertinent to threads in the ASR turntable forum which are dedicated to vinyl measurements. Unless perhaps it could help “explain the vinyl renaissance?”
 
Um, reminds me of something too: some ancient vinyl test records on my little SD chip. Do I want to really irritate the vinyl enthusiasts by measuring the distortion, albeit a few transformations since transcribed to CD with a Denon MC cartridge many years ago? Does vinyl THD add warmth and spaciousness to choral singing?

Or better, can somebody please post (or re-post) published THD tests for vinyl?

There are a few threads here where such things are commonly discussed (not that it'd be verboten in this thread).
 
I see no reason at all why publishing some vinyl measurements would irritate any of the vinyl enthusiast here.

We are all quite aware vinyl has distortion.

It’s only annoying when anybody thinks they have to keep reminding us (over and over and over).

But if you want to show some distortion, go for it. Though it seems to me that might be more pertinent to threads in the ASR turntable forum which are dedicated to vinyl measurements. Unless perhaps it could help “explain the vinyl renaissance?”
And Yes That Distortion Complements ""mostly second harmonic"" all the crappy unatural odd numberd distortion that most transistor stages and power amps make, while as good as all natural sounds has almost only even harmonic overtones,, so again vinyl makes the sound sound better,, nothing more important then to have a 45 degree falling line acoss all the harmonics up to at least 5'th or 7'th if one want to get to hi-fi ValHalla.. hi hi :)
 
So Do i, Thats why i quikley as i fast learned the why and how of transisor physics and digital sound reproduction,, and why everybody swear to that vinyl is more natural sounding witch it is.!!!! "" Everybody thinks / havelearned that no adult can hear sound above 16,5 Khz ((measurement on my own hearing)).... can anybody explain what happens to the music in the digital medium at the end of the spectrum.???
NO.??
well there is just sooooo many samples so it gets cut of ""TOTALLY CUT OFF LIKE A BRICK WALL"" At yes half the sampling frequency only one channel of audio get conveyed at a time whether it be left or right..... As This is'nt bad enoughf espesially when there is a clock in the digital chain that has JITTER of Several Thousands of picosecond "" why i swear to LC Audios premium clock with only one single Pico Second jitter""" but thats another matter alltogether a vinyl will sound better then the same cd even with porly aligned tone arm turtable and wrong freqency reonanses.....

For the simple reason that the top all the way up to 50 khz,,
And it's proven that we actually hear subconcially all the way up to 5oKhz.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

""""no one can hear that you say well many can hear the sample delay of 44.1 khz""""

And the vinyl rolles the top of NATURALLY AND GRADUALLY instead of like a cd or whatever LIKE A BRICK WALL STOP it is not natural as a vinyl replayed is either from a cxrappy turntable or a solid grannit one like mine, and that accounts for well i guess if not this whole discussion at least a whole lot of it.....

Sorry formy english grammar wich i gladly admit is not the best far from,, still i usually get my point across..... :)

Best's Of regards To Ya All May We All Find The Winding Road Ti Hi-Fi ValHalla.... :)
Ha!

You’ve just fed Newman and Sal enough read meat for a year! ;-)
 
Some things are at play, this thread among all the noise, is probably the best place on the internet to have an adult exchange on trying to find out what the mechanism fueling this revival are.

Vinyl listening is a valid high end medium that provide musical listening pleasure to thousands of happy users around the globe, apparently, the numbers of those listeners is growing as part of the vinyl revival.

That you like listening to vinyl occasionally, like me, most of the time or none at all, has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
"Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?"

Clearly this thread is not the best place for trying to fint what fuel the vinyl revival. Some comments are really really stupid and one think about a math geek out of touch with reality. Top quality is not the most important factor for what people buy. Trends, status, brand and many other things affects probably more than "the best quality jeans/TV/music format/etc.

I have already did a list of some of the main reason for the vinyl revival.
"Reason for vinyl can be
1. Better or different mastering than the digital.
2. Music not on digital.
3. More fun to play.
4. More fun to collect."

As nr 5 I would say social media. Posting rare or nice looking LPs on social media fuel others to "outdo" it. It is status to have the rarest or coolest release of the album.
 
Thinking through my own reasons for returning to (sonically inferior) vinyl (occasionally)…

Discovery. While I am usually looking for a particular issue of a particular album (I tend to buy colored vinyl), I occasionally come across a an album I am unfamiliar with by being arrested by its artwork and buying it based on that. There is also something tactilely enjoyable about flipping through albums. Yes, I am one of those who judges books by their covers. I don’t have time to actually read every book written to judge it on its merits. Who does. My favorite discovery was just because I loved the title of the album so much (Bucketfuls of Sickness and Horror in an Otherwise Meaningless Life). Weirdly, perhaps, I think I can do a better job of finding artists I like by their cover art, since I am not genre specific but I do get hooked by particular approaches to making music that extend across many genres).

Nostalgia. LPs were the first form of music I consumed (other than radio). My parents were not in to music, really. So it was also part of the process of self discovery. Playing LPs is connects me to that younger self. I am also nostalgic for owning things rather than having an unlimited playback license or renting.

Focus. LPs force me to be present when listening to music. When I listen to an LP I am choosing to listen to a set of songs put in that order by the makers that will last for at least 20 minutes. This forces me to think about what I want to engage for those 20 minutes and then usually actual do nothing but engage the music for that time. There is no reason that this can’t be done with digital (And is one of the reasons I think of getting a streamer rather than using my PC). But vinyl basically forces it. I’m an artist who uses photography. I shot 4x5 film for years and years. When digital finally hit that quality at a price I could afford, I bought a DSLR. I went from shooting a couple hundred frames a year (at most) to shooting 10,000+. But I didn’t make any more good pictures. I had to go back and recreate the approach of using a 4x5 camera when shooting my digital camera. 4x5s are big and clunky (though powerful) to use. It usually (for the way I would manipulate the movements and focus) take me 20 to 30 minutes to set up and focus the camera. This gave me a long time to really look at what I was doing and I would often find myself moving the camera and restarting the process in order to adjust the composition a little bit, but making a much better photo in the end. Even when using a point and shoot film camera, I find I am more critical simply since the costs of shooting have been increased.

Vinyl resurgence. I know I am back into vinyl partially because there is more of it again and other people are back in to it. I am a social creature.

Artist Support. I tend to like artists who probably don’t make a living doing music. They have crap jobs that they leave for a while to do a tour of fairly small venues, before going back to different crap jobs. So if I go to their show (at a place like the Launchpad in Albuquerque) and I like their music, I’ll usually buy their LP. Even at $30 it’s cheaper than it was when I bought them as a kid and the artist gets more money than if I stream their music. I could buy their digital album on BandCamp or whatever, but that nostalgia kicks in.

Technology. I love the fact that something so good sounding can be produced by such a seemingly primitive mechanism. There is something of the awe of Rough Science about it. Anyone seen that show? They would drop scientists from various fields off on an island (I think it was Elba) and give them tasks like; Make an audio recording or Make a photograph. And they would have to scrounge the island to see if the could accomplish the task. My dad was a physicist. I have many memories of seeing experiments that prove basic elements of how the universe works put together in the most jimmy-rigged and duct taped manner. So this also ties in to nostalgia for me, but also into the idea that amazing things can be accomplished really simply sometimes. The origin of the Ampere is something like that for me.
 
There are a few threads here where such things are commonly discussed (not that it'd be verboten in this thread).
Come on, JP. You have to advertise your work!


We very much enjoy technical discussion regarding the medium and its limits on this site. Much better than repeating a power point presentation of 7 broad bullet points ad nauseum.
 
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