Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Mean & Green]

Please can you explain?

They are referring to the increased dynamic range on the vinyl version versus digital, due to the digital version being subjected to dynamic compression.

 

[computer-audiophile]

They are referring to the increased dynamic range on the vinyl version versus digital, due to the digital version being subjected to dynamic compression.

Thanks, this is interesting.
By the way, I would never have discovered the existence of this band or what they make if it wasn't for Google where I typed in the name.

 

[Newman]

Thanks, this is interesting.

It is interesting, but it is also extremely controversial. The tool that is usually used (and was used for the image provided) is extremely unreliable for that purpose, plus also known to routinely give biased high numbers for vinyl.

By the way, I would never have discovered the existence of this band or what they make if it wasn't for Google where I typed in the name.

They are extremely high profile and have been so for more than 20 years. At one point they were married at which point he took her surname. Good on him.

 

[mppix]

With the exception of transducers, home audio is a solved problem.

Perhaps for the sweet spot of 2channel audio in symmetric rectangular rooms. Everything else...

 

[Mean & Green]

Thanks, this is interesting.
By the way, I would never have discovered the existence of this band or what they make if it wasn't for Google where I typed in the name.

Check out their album Elephant.

IMO a great album you’ll be sure to know the track Seven Nation Army.

 

[mppix]

Now we just have to wait for digital to catch up to vinyl in quality. It’s getting there but not yet.

Seriously? (speechless)

 

[computer-audiophile]

Check out their album Elephant.

IMO a great album you’ll be sure to know the track Seven Nation Army.

With this kind of punk music, I don't think it matters so much whether it has a compressed dynamic or not.
(I am musically more in classical music camp. Pop is not my cup of tea)

 

[computer-audiophile]

Seriously? (speechless)

I think MattHooper wants with his post, to fire up the thread a bit.

 

[Prana Ferox]

Yes. Can you clarify it for me? Sounds like snake stuff

Unlike most cables that can be considered snake oil the capacitance of the cable between the cart and pre-amp can have a large and measurable and audible effect on the FR of the system with an MM cart. The cable mentioned had 160 pF of capacitance inside the tone arm which is high ( about 200 pF for the total of the tone arm cable and TT to pre-amp cable of 200 pF or so is considered "standard"). The problem is it is difficult to change the cable inside the tone arm. Since capacitance only affect MM carts (not MC carts) it was mentioned that a MC cart was used to get around the high tone arm capacitance issue. While maybe a little off topic there is no snake oil involved. You can search MM cart loading for more information.

Another way of phrasing this is that part of the downside of vinyl is that it's surprisingly easy to pick parts of the signal chain that interact poorly with each other and screw up the sound in detectable ways. Even the manufacturers do it at times, and if someone who doesn't know what they're doing (which is 99% of the people who aren't the manufacturer) decide to start swapping cartridges or especially tonearms / cables etc, regardless of the subjective perception, the objective result is quite likely to be worse.

The phono preamp also gets included in this equation. Most preamps have minimum to no adjustability for their input parameters, and are hopefully tuned for a reasonable medium (assuming a mass market table and MM cart) but may produce weird sound if you deviate from that. Fancier preamps (or DIY jobs) may have more adjustability but that's also more things for the end user to screw up. Adjustability also assumes the manufacturers correctly measure and publish specs of their product, and their manufacturing lines are consistent.

Throw in things like background rumble, various surface crud and needle wear and it takes real work to get a consistent, maximal quality signal from a record. Selecting and matching components properly will get better sound out, but this is partly the birth of audiophilia where people assume they can skip the math and physics of the problems and just throw money at it, because surely that will make it better. And thus at some point even the manufacturers don't bother with the math, because when you're charging that much you've long since focused on the customers that don't care.

Meanwhile you could record the same signal to digital disc or FLAC file and utterly trounce the measurable quality of the playback chain, and do it with approximately no maintenance with a setup a layperson could run all day even on the weekends.

 

[antcollinet]

Seriously? (speechless)

Matt is pulling your leg.

 

[egellings]

Perhaps for the sweet spot of 2channel audio in symmetric rectangular rooms. Everything else...

The solved problem is in the electronic equipment itself. Rooms are a whole other story. Speakers, too.

 

[egellings]

Now we just have to wait for digital to catch up to vinyl in quality. It’s getting there but not yet.

I view the digital formats as very accurate in their presentation of sound. I find vinyl to be euphonic if less accurate, and I like that sort of sound.

 

[Pe8er]

Matt is pulling your leg.

Or maybe Sal hijacked his computer?

 

[MattHooper]

Matt is pulling your leg.

Indeed. j/k Not to mention a little test to who's been paying attention.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I view the digital formats as very accurate in their presentation of sound. I find vinyl to be euphonic if less accurate, and I like that sort of sound.

That is exactly my point. For me, listening pleasure with an audio-system can take very different forms. Sometimes I even try to trace the sound of the past, with a romantic approach and with the appropriate technical means. I have therefore recreated old audio things, used old tube circuitry as a model, used old loudspeakers, etc. and brought this to a new life.

Today, for example, when I have the opportunity to listen to a Cellule Clément, a phono cartridge that was used in French radio stations in my youth, that great time comes back to life in my imagination, when radio was the most important medium and carried me away.

 

[USER]

I wish I could hear a euphonic set-up. I have 5 turntables, 5 phono preamps, and 3 overall systems and have never heard anything I'd call euphonic. I've measured over 40 cartridges as well and don't see much difference in distortion between 1-3kHz on non-worn cartridges. I've recorded and compared to digital and for the life of me that isn't the difference. Perhaps near the inner most groove... That is a future experiment for me to try.

 

[beagleman]

Indeed. j/k Not to mention a little test to who's been paying attention.

Great Job Matt!

I was just about to contact my co-conspirators so we could go on another 25-30 page rant against you......

Now I find it was a comment made in jest???

 

[NIN]

It is interesting, but it is also extremely controversial. The tool that is usually used (and was used for the image provided) is extremely unreliable for that purpose, plus also known to routinely give biased high numbers for vinyl.

Yes, it is a problem to measure vinyl with that DR tool. But in this case it is easy because we know that the CD (digital) was mastered by Vlado Meller and dynamic smashed. The vinyl (original release at least) was cut from the analog tapes without Vlado's terrible mastering and without the dynamic smashed.
And this album in not the only one. And off course this don't say that vinyl is the better audio format over CD just that in this case the LP is the best sounding* version of this album.

*It will off course be some subjective differece between people.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm tempted to reply to every future post on this thread with....


"bin said before"

 

[USER]

Because I think critics and defenders here are not always presenting concise and fully explored responses, I'm thinking, wouldn't it be good to begin to establish a sort of baseline from which to engage?

Here is a recording I made a few years ago as well as a recent digital remaster of the track. The recording is not my best work--my goal now is museum grade archive quality (seriously, I am trying to preserve music)--but that's perfect for this situation. It is closer to a recording anyone can make. The vinyl recording should show a lot of the limitations of the medium, including crosstalk. Speed is very close but not exact either. There were no de-clicking filters run. I now measure cartridges and can optimize loading and even EQ if I need to and am using a flat phono preamplifier and applying perfect digital RIAA. So it is as close to a pure signal as possible. Nonetheless this was recorded with a very good cartridge and with a known phono preamp measured here. The turntable--from the 1980s--cost me $250 4 years ago. Loudness normalization set to -16 LUFS. To be upfront, it is a track near the outer groove, which is easier on cartridges. And so maybe something like this can be helpful for us to understand what someone means when they say something like records sound euphonic.

xxx

What sounds different or is so fucking awful here? And to put my chips on the table and show why this thread can be exhausting to me: I am 100% a digital person. I only like the medium for archiving. I archive records and I archive historical performance through measurements. So I have absolutely no ulterior motives to defend the medium. I just want people to get the most they can from the medium and stop throwing money away.

And one final thing, one argument missed is that we generally listen to records in rooms that are terrible for audio. This makes a tremendous difference. I am extremely lucky to have an excellent, state of the art system that follows the science and I know for a fact that I cannot get the best of it in my room, even with DSP/room correction. I don't have a room designed for audio with sound proofing. My Benchmark AHB2 is completely wasted in my family room. This is made extremely clear when I listen to reference quality and Harman tuned headphones. The difference between records and digital cannot be more clear than when heard on reference headphones. There is no comparison. But in normal rooms the difference, while clearly there, is never captured fully. And the pictures of the rooms users use has me thinking that a lot of criticism is exaggerated and cynical if we are talking about real world use.

I will take down the link in a week or so so if you are interested grab them now.