Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[computer-audiophile]

Now a very concrete observation in the circle of friends, at fairs and scene meetings. People often listen to entertainment music that does not require extremely good audio equipment and was not produced for this gear.

The term SOTA is actually very unspecific, because the state of the art can be reflected quite differently in different product categories. There are also cheap consumer products that represent a certain SOTA in their particular segment.

I wouldn't equate SOTA with high-end-audio, for example. Basically, these are all useless categories imo, as far as listening enjoyment is concerned.

SINAD is simply a measurement that expresses noise and distortion, and you know roughly how good it should be in practice. In this respect, many devices are better than required, with the exception of loudspeakers. That is the bottleneck of it all.

 

[drmevo]

Agreed. What do you think is the necessary budget for a "decent, not expensive, up-to-date" TT including tonearm, cartridge and phono amp?

I’ll bite. I’d throw out $1500-$2k, if buying new. For example: a Technics MK7 ($1100), Darlington MM5, Schiit Mani 2, or Cambridge phono stage (~$200), Audio Technica ML cartridge like the VM95ML or VM540ML ($180-$280).

 

[mhardy6647]

True!

For me, the sound potential is clearly on the recording or content side. I therefore pay the most attention to that.
What you normally get to buy on LP, CD, or streaming is still second-rate today.

One of the most enjoyable listening experiences on my audio pilgrimages was the screening of master tapes made during live recordings in German radio studios. Played back on a big vintage Klangfilm horn speaker system by my former audio friend Tom S. (R.I.P.).

I show here a photo of the said AEG-Telefunken tape recorder which was used for that.

View attachment 303261

Yes, indeed.
I have a hifi colleague here in New England with a substantial collection of low-generation tapes and excellent quality hardware upon which to play them. Some of them are just astonishing to hear.

 

[computer-audiophile]

For example: a Technics MK7

Strangely, Technics no longer gives a S/N for these models on their Website. Or have I not found it? Are they too bad for the DJ-models compared to the Hifi-models?

In my opinion, they should be in the order of 70 db at least.
For the 1200GR, you can still find them on the website.

Wow and flutter 0.025 % W.R.M.S.
Rumble 78 dB (IEC 98A-weighted)

 

[beagleman]

Sal. Take the worst recording you ever remember hearing.

Now, play it through the most accurate system you can imagine.

Do you think it would then be best to describe what you hear as "High Quality Sound?"

Please tell me you recognize how weird that would be. Does every single recording become indistinguishibly High Quality Sound through an accurate system?

The *sound* Sal. The sound. What. It. Sounds. Like.

Matt I think I get what you are saying, even though perhaps we disagree on other matters.

In essence you will hear a high quality reproduction of a low quality source, and yes most would say it is LOW sound quality. But...........

..........you are talking recording "Source" quality, that can widely vary, and I think the overall topic is more towards reproduction ability or at the least, the overall ability of a specific media (vinyl in this case) to reproduce signals with high accuracy/fidelity overall.

 

[drmevo]

Strangely, Technics no longer gives a S/N for these models on their Website. Or have I not found it? Are they too bad for the DJ-models compared to the Hifi-models?

In my opinion, they should be in the order of 70 db at least.
For the 1200GR, you can still find them on the website.

Wow and flutter 0.025 % W.R.M.S.
Rumble 78 dB (IEC 98A-weighted)

Well, I'm a bigtime dummy when it comes to electronics (part of the reason I'm here - to learn), but wouldn't a turntable need to have some electronics like a built-in phono stage in order to have a S/N ratio? Or are you saying rumble is synonymous?

 

[computer-audiophile]

I am referring to rumble in the S/N turntable context. To me it is the most important quality indicator of the drive noise, platter bearing noise, etc.

 

[beagleman]

Well, I'm a bigtime dummy when it comes to electronics (part of the reason I'm here - to learn), but wouldn't a turntable need to have some electronics like a built-in phono stage in order to have a S/N ratio? Or are you saying rumble is synonymous?

The turntable signal to noise ratio, is the amount of noise, mostly rumble output from the cartridge before being passed onto the Pre-amp section.

They use a non modulated groove and measure additional noise over various parts of the test record, from out to inner, as things vary depending on where the grooves are at diameter wise.

The RIAA playback curve boosts the bass up to approximately 20db at 20hz, so no matter how quiet the table, the 20db reduction of bass grooves needs a subsequent 20 db boost to equal out the loss.

Therefore very deep bass frequencies noise, will be boosted by up to 20 decibels.

 

[JP]

Well, I'm a bigtime dummy when it comes to electronics (part of the reason I'm here - to learn), but wouldn't a turntable need to have some electronics like a built-in phono stage in order to have a S/N ratio? Or are you saying rumble is synonymous?

It's not really synonymous, rather an inappropriate term that some pressed in to service. Rumble is the correct term as SNR implies a full representation of the noise which, as you pointed out, the contributions of which aren't typically within the scope of the 'table.

 

[JP]

Yes, both good enough and good sound are preferences and/or value judgements. Accuracy is a technical evaluation, but not achieved absolutely. If a technical deficiency has no audible consequences, then it may not conflict with good sound or with high fidelity.

I'd say it depends on context, as most things do. In my circle of audio friends, when we say Good Enough, we mean the performance is adequate enough as to be audibly transparent.

 

[levimax]

Agreed. What do you think is the necessary budget for a "decent, not expensive, up-to-date" TT including tonearm, cartridge and phono amp?

To try a TT to see if you want to continue the AT USB tables are between $200 and $400. If you want better or are confident you are in it for the long run the Technics 1500 or 1200 GR for between $1,200 and $1,800 with a $200 cambridge pre-amp.

If you are DIY and patient you can get similar quality for 1/3 to 1/2 of above costs.

 

[computer-audiophile]

To try a TT to see if you want to continue the AT USB tables are between $200 and $400.

In my opinion, this is the best way to get out of the habit.

 

[teched58]

Hey @Sal1950, let's be fair and admit that in those simple times, LPs were the best horse in the glue factory... because there was nothing else for the consumer, short of radio which really was the BS of the times, not LPs.
One of the prime reasons many shunned and revolted with Napster (et al) was because music moguls cornered the CD market with a proprietary format and charged anything they wanted.
IMHO: The Hooligan Bastards took our music hostage, like a poison-pill...
'Nuff said!

This is a misunderstanding of radio. In the era of early LPs, FM radio was the source capable of the highest fidelity, which it could do when broadcasting music live, as in live broadcasts of a symphony orchestra. FR up to 15 kHz, no surface noise (though radio does have Schottky noise).

 

[IPunchCholla]

Agreed. What do you think is the necessary budget for a "decent, not expensive, up-to-date" TT including tonearm, cartridge and phono amp?

What I find strange about the vinyl “renaissance“ is the lack of any kind of “renaissance“ in the playback chain. My TT launched in 1984 for $220 ($650 today). It has the same specs for W&F and rumble as top of the line turntables made today. One would have to double the price ($1200 today dollars) to get the same specs. And none of those TTS come with basic features I find essential (why can’t “audiophile” TTS be fully auto or be T4P?).

 

[JP]

What I find strange about the vinyl “renaissance“ is the lack of any kind of “renaissance“ in the playback chain. My TT launched in 1984 for $220 ($650 today). It has the same specs for W&F and rumble as top of the line turntables made today. One would have to double the price ($1200 today dollars) to get the same specs. And none of those TTS come with basic features I find essential (why can’t “audiophile” TTS be fully auto or be T4P?).

And phono cartridges have regressed...

 

[Newman]

…which is kind of shocking…

 

[JP]

How so?

 

[USER]

Not really. R&D stopped over 30 years ago. This is all a quick cash grab and most products are crap, which is why it is important that ASR allows space to discuss the medium in proper technical terms and continue to review products. We live in a world of perpetual new media, people could give a shit about the "best" as media itself is often the product. But it is important that they still be informed consumers. Preventing discussion is about the dumbest thing one can do, especially if they want to "stick it to the man."

 

[Newman]

How so?

The Namiki and Gyger stylii with laser cut ridge profiles came after 1984…

 

[GXAlan]

What I find strange about the vinyl “renaissance“ is the lack of any kind of “renaissance“ in the playback chain. My TT launched in 1984 for $220 ($650 today). It has the same specs for W&F and rumble as top of the line turntables made today. One would have to double the price ($1200 today dollars) to get the same specs. And none of those TTS come with basic features I find essential (why can’t “audiophile” TTS be fully auto or be T4P?).

I agree. I can see 2x the price, accounting for inflation, to capture the lower volumes and loss of economies of scale.

But I agree 100% about the second half of your comment. There's no reason why modern audiophile flagship turntables cannot be fully automatic. People are spending thousands on fully automatic vinyl LP cleaners (the Degritter). Maybe this is something that Schiit should look at doing or Denon/Marantz.