Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[computer-audiophile]

Something else on the subject of Dual.

Twenty years ago I had a phase where I was more intensively occupied with vintage turntables that I had known since my youth and tried to buy some of such classics as perfectly preserved as possible to restore them. Among them was a Dual 1229, which is the last and best model with an idler wheel drive, and that's what I found attractive. But as it is sometimes with used purchases. The 1229 arrived totally broken because it was badly packed. I actually hate buying used stuff and don't usually do it. A former acquaintance from our audio clique at the time has a Dual 1229 that plays very well. I could already convince myself of that.

Photo from the internet:

 

[IPunchCholla]

There is more information packed into the inner grooves. It takes 1.8 seconds for a record to turn one revolution. If an inner groove is 2½" from the center of the record, and the outer groove is 5½" away from the center, an inner groove is 15¾" long and an outer groove is 34½" long (remember 2πR?). The same 1.8 seconds of music has to fit into each groove. It's packed more tightly into the inner groove. The wiggles in the vinyl are coming fast and furious on the inner grooves compared to the outer ones.

On many of the contemporary LPs I buy, I have noticed that there are only 3 or so tracks per side, leaving the inner 1/3rd of the playable area blank. I wonder if this is one reason why.

 

[Sal1950]

Back in the day, we ALL complained about vinyl and wished for something, to remove those dozen issues.
We got that for the most part in Compact disc.

What a perfect description of the situation.
Great post beagleman!

Once I went to a good turntable- circa 1985 from the Dual 505 Mk2 to the Merrill Heirloom Micro Seiki arm - the issues disappeared unless you had a messed up album.

Mostly baloney. The best TT in the world can't remove all the technical deficiency of the media.
Surface noise, pops and clicks, mistracking on inner grooves, mono'd bass, restricted inner detail, it ain't going away.

Please stop insulting the vinyl listeners. They have their reasons.

No one wishes to insult anyone.
We're just not going to let vinyl be mis-represented as SOTA High Fidelity medium.
Just as we don't recommend any other poorly measuring components.
Vinyl has many serious audible problems that aren't going away no matter how much you spend.

For this and for many similar rare records from my collection alone, a record player is worth it for me. It is a direct cut disc, which results in a very good sound quality. The music is by the highly esteemed composer Wolfgang Rihm, whom I know personally and have experienced more often. He was a former neighbor of ours.

That's kool, so much music, so little time.

On many of the contemporary LPs I buy, I have noticed that there are only 3 or so tracks per side, leaving the inner 1/3rd of the playable area blank. I wonder if this is one reason why.

Absolutely. There have been many tweaks used over the decades to try and minimize inner groove distortions.
Not using them is just another.

 

[beagleman]

It's geometry, so stylus shape absolutely does play a role. These are actual measurements. No practical way to know if or how much of the differences with 2.5µm minor radius are due to geometry or just track variation.

View attachment 301376

You are talking about another real issue, that is separate from the one I mentioned. There are TWO actual issues, your issue mentioned pertains to the playback side of things, and you are entirely correct.

The issue I mentioned is not a playback issue, but a entirely a pressing/physics issue. It concerns ONLY rotational speed and the resultant concentration of more musical information onto a smaller sized area of vinyl.

Outer grooves get almost 3 Feet (34.5") of real estate for a few seconds (1.8s to be exact) of music.

Inner grooves get only about 15" or groove real estate.....for the same 1.8 second rotation.

Because vinyl is constant velocity, something has to give or suffer. It is either overload the inner grooves (volume wise) and get more distortion or reduce the level of ALL signals across the entire record to an equal degree, and all grooves have somewhat more noise, and resultant less distortion overall.

The outer grooves can easily carry higher signal levels, so they equal all OR usually lessen the level of the inner last song or two, OR, make the last song or two ones that are quieter less demanding songs.

 

[dkinric]

Sal, c'mon, let these guys have their thread. If they want to talk here about dragging shiny rocks across plastic to get their jollies, let em. No matter what they say, it will not change the fact that it's an inferior medium that is far from SOTA. You made your point.

 

[levimax]

I suspect you and @Newman are agreeing furiously?

My only difference is that @Newman seemed to imply that the "vinyl loudness wars" was followed immediatly to the "CD / digital loudness wars" for popular music. I would contend that from the late 1980's to the mid 1990's there were many very well recorded and dynamic popular music titles released on CD that really showed the promise of what digital technology could be before the loudness wars set things back.

 

[Sal1950]

Sal, c'mon, let these guys have their thread. If they want to talk here about dragging shiny rocks across plastic to get their jollies, let em. No matter what they say, it will not change the fact that it's an inferior medium that is far from SOTA. You made your point.

Why single me out? LOL
There's a bunch of folk here trying to get through to the vinyl guys.

 

[Musty]

A couple of points. Loudness in the vinyl age was about radio play, and to a lesser extent a concern from some artists when their song was quieter than the others on a compilation hits LP. So it didn't affect normal LPs as much and often not at all.
And when it comes to CD, it depends on when and where it "took over". A lot of radio stations didn't really switch to CD or digital until.. the mid 1990s, right on when you point to the beginning of the loudness wars.

I suspect you and @Newman are agreeing furiously?

Wasn't "loudness wars" started by the Sony Walkman? People wanted music mostly the same level because they were listening to it outside, through poor quality headphones/ear plugs. They couldn't hear the quiet bits without deafening themselves with the loud bits.

 

[Sal1950]

My only difference is that @Newman seemed to imply that the "vinyl loudness wars" was followed immediatly to the "CD / digital loudness wars" for popular music. I would contend that from the late 1980's to the mid 1990's there were many very well recorded and dynamic popular music titles released on CD that really showed the promise of what digital technology could be before the loudness wars set things back.

It's a shame what some mis-guided engineers AND artists did to some masters.
When we talk about popular music, which is where the bulk of the sins are, a lot of the practice
can be laid at the artists feet. They WANTED their records to be the loudest thing you heard
on the radio or whatever, it got your attention.

 

[computer-audiophile]

We're just not going to let vinyl be mis-represented as SOTA High Fidelity medium.
Just as we don't recommend any other poorly measuring components.
Vinyl has many serious audible problems that aren't going away no matter how much you spend.

I do not know anyone which see Vinyl-Record as SOTA. There should be no dissent about that.

 

[Sal1950]

It's a shame what some mis-guided engineers AND artists did to some masters.
When we talk about popular music, which is where the bulk of the sins are, a lot of the practice
can be laid at the artists feet. They WANTED their records to be the loudest thing you heard
on the radio or whatever, it got your attention.

I'm reminded of a post by Mark Waldrep at AIX records, a top shelf recording engineer.
He talks of doing a recording for an un-named artist where his master was returned to
him 3 times by the artist with instructions to "make it louder".
If I can find the blog post I'll link it here.

 

[Sal1950]

Once I went to a good turntable- circa 1985 from the Dual 505 Mk2 to the Merrill Heirloom Micro Seiki arm - the issues disappeared unless you had a messed up album.

I do not know anyone which see Vinyl-Record as SOTA. There should be no dissent about that.

Hummm, We just got told by Florida Bob that all the "issues disappeared" with a high quality TT.
And you gave him a like for that. LOL

 

[computer-audiophile]

Hummm, We just got told by Florida Bob that all the "issues disappeared" with a high quality TT.
And you gave him a like for that. LOL

I see it differentiated. For example, there are also turntables that are SOTA in their special segment. I would position the Technics SL-1000R here, for example.

I am spontaneous and think positive in giving likes, even you have already received some from me.

 

[JP]

You are talking about another real issue, that is separate from the one I mentioned. There are TWO actual issues, your issue mentioned pertains to the playback side of things, and you are entirely correct.

The issue I mentioned is not a playback issue, but a entirely a pressing/physics issue. It concerns ONLY rotational speed and the resultant concentration of more musical information onto a smaller sized area of vinyl.

Outer grooves get almost 3 Feet (34.5") of real estate for a few seconds (1.8s to be exact) of music.

Inner grooves get only about 15" or groove real estate.....for the same 1.8 second rotation.

Because vinyl is constant velocity, something has to give or suffer. It is either overload the inner grooves (volume wise) and get more distortion or reduce the level of ALL signals across the entire record to an equal degree, and all grooves have somewhat more noise, and resultant less distortion overall.

The outer grooves can easily carry higher signal levels, so they equal all OR usually lessen the level of the inner last song or two, OR, make the last song or two ones that are quieter less demanding songs.

Geometry of the playback stylus is why that situation exists. It's not two issues, it's cause and effect.

 

[levimax]

I do not know anyone which see Vinyl-Record as SOTA. There should be no dissent about that.

I think one issue is that some people feel if Vinyl isn't SOTA it is not worthy of attention. Others see Vinyl as not SOTA but rather as "Art" which provides a different experience than a file or a stream.

 

[deweydm]

One of the biggest ironies is that back in the day there were a lot of popular music songs like "Telegraph Road" with very dramatic leads ins that started very quiet and built to a creshendo. Effects like this are where digital technology with it's low noise floor could really shine compared to vinyl. But what ended up happening to digital technologies great promise? Modern popular music uses it to eliminate any dynamic content and then it is also used to go back and eliminate the dynamic content of older music with digital remasterings. The first thing destroyed with a loud remaster is a quiet lead in. Crazy how things work out sometimes.

Older, currently inexpensive CDs, arguably a much better work around to problems like this than LPs, when available.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Hummm, We just got told by Florida Bob that all the "issues disappeared" with a high quality TT.
And you gave him a like for that. LOL

So, you like motorcycles and listening to music on a multi-channel Atmos system. However, you have taken on the role of "setting all us stupid vinyl lovers" straight.
Two out of three is not too bad.

 

[levimax]

Older, currently inexpensive CDs, arguably a much better work around to problems like this than LPs, when available.

I have both the original LP and the original CD for "Love over Gold" as I do for most of my favorite older music. Due to crazy prices on used LP's currently I am buying mostly old original CD's these days.

 

[Sal1950]

Others see Vinyl as not SOTA but rather as "Art" which provides a different experience than a file or a stream.

How about Edison Cylinders, 78's, 8 tracks, or cassette's, do you still use them as your "ART"?
Or did you move on to a better quality, much more convenient medium.
I don't want to use a crank to start my car either. LOL

 

[Sal1950]

So, you like motorcycles and listening to music on a multi-channel Atmos system. However, you have taken on the role of "setting all us stupid vinyl lovers" straight.
Two out of three is not too bad.

ROTFLMAO