beagleman
Major Contributor
NOT HERE, in other forums and a few I know in real life.
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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?
- Thread starter carewser
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My experience is that vinyl can be better than it should be for a 100+ year old mechanical audioformat. It still amaze me sometimes when vinyl is done right. I would say that a A/B test can be rather close between vinyl and digital if the music is rather "loud" (not quiet parts classical music) and if one don't play too loud, then the worse s/n will be hard not to notice.
But even then (great mastering, superb pressing, amazing pick-up + phonostage and music fit for vinyl) one can clearly hear a difference. I have not experience vinyl to give the same "sharp" soundstage as the same mastering on digital. Vinyl will also add some spaciousness to the sound. But I also think that those two things are reason is why many love vinyl over digital.
beagleman
Major Contributor
How forgiving some peoples brains are.
There was a time I never noticed issues in vinyl at all, but years before with the same set up I often heard things that put me on edge.
I realized the before times were before I had CD, and the later times after CD.
That should not matter, but my brain adjusted to CD and not worrying about skipping or noises or tracking issues on really loud parts, and when I listened to vinyl later period, it did not make me worry, as I knew it was not my only media choice anymore.
When I only had vinyl as a choice, the tiniest imperfection would upset me. It was as if things were ruined and every time I played that album I would hear that break up on a loud part....
I agree, it can sound great at times, when everything aligns, but the listener is part of the equation also.
This is part of the pleasure for me in listening to records. It’s even better when I listen to a 60’s vintage recording on vinyl. A live performance captured by 60+ year old recording technology, and rendered from an even older media that gives a pretty damn good illusion of being there makes me smile.
Exactly.
ASR is not a rah rah club for a noisy, distorted, obsolete medium.
No rose colored glasses when it comes to High Fidelity
If playing with a record cleaning brush and all the rest is your idea of fun, be my guest.
Just don't try and present it as a relevant option for SOTA sound for the last 50 years.
Translation: " Bah Humbug! grumble grumble grouch "
Galliardist
Major Contributor
What happened is that there were some very big changes in the way people access music. If I remember the figures correctly, the number of homes with stereo systems with speakers has fallen from over half to around 11% (US survey, but seems to apply in European countries as well), while the iPod and its successors, and the development of PCs as stereo systems on a smaller scale, took music from something you sat down to listen to in the home to something you listen to while travelling or something you listened to on much less capable speakers. We've gone from there to those mono Bluetooth speakers, smart speakers and other things with limited audio capability. In other words, the market has adapted not to the quality of the source, but the quality of the transducer. I don't think there are many here at ASR who would primarily listen on these devices, but we aren't the majority of listeners, are we?
Also, realise that in different circumstances we too can be caught by the impact of reduced dynamic range. In advance of the demise (which will take time to happen) of MQA, I was involved in a conversation around its beginnings, and that led us back to the very earliest albums that were prepared and released in MQA form: albums like Trilogy by ELP, and Rumours by Fleetwood Mac. Without measuring, we found subjectively that the apparent feature that drove all those early subjective "MQA is better, better masters, etc" seems to be... reduced dynamic range. It's particularly audible on Rumours, where on some tracks voices were set back in the mix - but are pushed forwards by comparison in MQA. On the other hand, it's relatively cleverly done compared to a lot of what we've been served with elsewhere. Not all of those early versions are available on Tidal, they either never made it in the form they reached reviewers, or have been swapped out for later remasters, making it hard to tell if this is a general case. I have my suspicions.
Of course, there was no such remastering when they started the mass processing of tracks into MQA at Tidal, so we just get the same as anywhere else, with the potentially inaudible downsides found by researchers later (my hearing is old now).
The other thing is of course that people don't listen to vinyl on noisy trains or in cars, so it's been left behind by that "progress" to an extent.
What we may need for the future is to find a way to monitor the output of streaming services, and drive the audiophile part of the market towards the best service and best releases. We can use the same pressure that I'm sure helped kill MQA to get improved quality into digital, with the right tools and monitoring (I'm not convinced that DR tools as such cut it on their own). There's probably scope to do some blind testing on different mixes of the same (new) tracks, if we could get at such things, to find out what we really want in terms of playback on digital - though the results might shock us.
Sorry for mentioning both vinyl and MQA in the same post... hoping not to get banned.
Galliardist
Major Contributor
One thing we forget when talking about all the newer technologies, is how good commercial stereo was at birth, if you had the right equipment. It was all but fully formed. Think about those little TVs of the time and how that technology has changed in comparison!
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
I like that idea and would like to participate in that.
BTW I have rejected MQA from the beginning.
But my main interest today is not so much in the recording technique or media itself, but rather in finding outstanding, artfully composed music. Pop, for example, doesn't interest me at all, and neither does video-sound or home cinema. Unfortunately, my ears do not get better with age. I hear comparatively very well, says my ear doctor, but the high tone hearing has become a little less, I must admit.
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GearNostalgia
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I am not sure about others, but for me vinyl is fun for three reasons.
1, The nostalgia of rediscovering my old records and memories attached to them
2, The hunt for good sound. used to play my records on a cheap setup 40 years ago. Now it is fun to hunt down "top of the line" vintage setup and see what it should have sounded like.
2, The fun of collecting. Hunting records online or visiting shops and convents, looking at the covers, scrutinizing the vinyls condition, is more fun than just pressing play on a stream.
1, The nostalgia of rediscovering my old records and memories attached to them
2, The hunt for good sound. used to play my records on a cheap setup 40 years ago. Now it is fun to hunt down "top of the line" vintage setup and see what it should have sounded like.
2, The fun of collecting. Hunting records online or visiting shops and convents, looking at the covers, scrutinizing the vinyls condition, is more fun than just pressing play on a stream.
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
To illustrate the topic, I show an old souvenir photo from a visit to the former Maison de L'Audiophile in Paris, where I found some rare vinyl records. There always met a group of older gentlemen who talked about classical music and listened to great records and audio systems of the house. Me and also my wife were several times part of this true audiophile round.
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I am very familiar with the shortcomings of record players and the discs played on them having worked in the industry when they were the main music source.
I still have quite a few LPs and play them occasionally, I have 4 record players but mainly use the biggest heaviest one because once set up I have little inclination to move it.
I rebuild it from time to time.
IME there is often a bigger difference between the recordings we listen to than there is between the formats music is distributed on, so from a SQ pov mostly we are stuck with what we have been sold. I have super sounding LPs as well as awful ones and the same is true of CDs.
I no longer buy LPs since the prices have gone daft. The marketing pseudo technical bollox used to sell the astonishingly expensive record playing equipment pushed onto enthusiasts annoys me, but if they don't understand it is their money...
The law of diminishing returns is just as real as ever and some of the unique features used to make a product seem special to non-technically savvy customers actually will result in inferior performance to much less expensive stuff.
What shocks me is any sort of renaissance of reel-to-reel tape when there are pretty well zero good quality period recordings available.
I still have quite a few LPs and play them occasionally, I have 4 record players but mainly use the biggest heaviest one because once set up I have little inclination to move it.
I rebuild it from time to time.
IME there is often a bigger difference between the recordings we listen to than there is between the formats music is distributed on, so from a SQ pov mostly we are stuck with what we have been sold. I have super sounding LPs as well as awful ones and the same is true of CDs.
I no longer buy LPs since the prices have gone daft. The marketing pseudo technical bollox used to sell the astonishingly expensive record playing equipment pushed onto enthusiasts annoys me, but if they don't understand it is their money...
The law of diminishing returns is just as real as ever and some of the unique features used to make a product seem special to non-technically savvy customers actually will result in inferior performance to much less expensive stuff.
What shocks me is any sort of renaissance of reel-to-reel tape when there are pretty well zero good quality period recordings available.
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
Interesting! Which ones? Are there pics?
As promised some Goldmund Reference photos from when I last serviced it. Too much tech alert!
The pictures are not in any chosen order, just the one the software chose when I loaded them. This is the base with the isolation suspension and the leveling adjusters poking out, the big knurled rings adjust the base height of the isolator. This is the cast "subchassis" with subplatter...
www.audiosciencereview.com
computer-audiophile
Major Contributor
Thanks - now I remember again!
The Goldmund is a legendary and expensive example of a turntable. You can be lucky that you are able to service it yourself, as an engineer.
I assume that it will work very well. Have actually once been published measurement results from this device? Noise and wow and flutter, e.g.?
BTW: I once participated in a turntable shootout in which a smaller Goldmund participated, but I do not know your model from the own experience.
The Goldmund is a legendary and expensive example of a turntable. You can be lucky that you are able to service it yourself, as an engineer.
I assume that it will work very well. Have actually once been published measurement results from this device? Noise and wow and flutter, e.g.?
BTW: I once participated in a turntable shootout in which a smaller Goldmund participated, but I do not know your model from the own experience.
beagleman
Major Contributor
Some become very defensive of vinyl, as we saw even in this thread.
It can sound great, DESPITE, still having a bakers dozen of issues. Some people can easily overlook or not "hear into" the issues, some are highly bothered by the issues.
The problem comes when a person that feels subjectively they are "okay" with the minor issues, is told that there ARE issues.
The excuses start, such as:
You need to clean records
You need to align your cart and tone arm etc....
You are just a vinyl hater/troll etc.
The thing I feel, is some like some aspects of vinyl but are easily able to unconsciously not hear the small issues, and some are the opposite.
Tape hiss falls into a similar category of subjective happiness. Some love a bit of hiss, some despise hearing any.
I just hate that for whatever reasons some tracks are only available on Vinyl.
What's up with these exclusive tracks where you need to buy a limited edition of a LP that costs 3 times the price of a CD.
Or sometimes stuff on Bandcamp is only available on CD / Vinyl but you cannot buy a digital version despite the vinyl and CD where digital mastered to begin with.
On the other hand I'm glade there are still vinyls around with all the old stuff that never even got a CD release at all.
Streaming alone is no solution either...
We just had a lightning storm and internet was gone... So only my local library was available in roon... Internet is back and some tracks of a double live CD are "not available".
A good clean LP can sound good enough.. But the expense to get to that level is in my opinion not worth the expense.
What's up with these exclusive tracks where you need to buy a limited edition of a LP that costs 3 times the price of a CD.
Or sometimes stuff on Bandcamp is only available on CD / Vinyl but you cannot buy a digital version despite the vinyl and CD where digital mastered to begin with.
On the other hand I'm glade there are still vinyls around with all the old stuff that never even got a CD release at all.
Streaming alone is no solution either...
We just had a lightning storm and internet was gone... So only my local library was available in roon... Internet is back and some tracks of a double live CD are "not available".
A good clean LP can sound good enough.. But the expense to get to that level is in my opinion not worth the expense.
GearNostalgia
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You lost me here. What is the best medium for music to you?
Just the facts and nothing but the facts.Translation: " Bah Humbug! grumble grumble grouch "
Well Digital files.. after that blurays or CDs or SACDs.. they can all be ripped after all.
Just annoying that some new releases have vinyl exclusive tracks. So you are forced to by a multiple times more expensive media for no reason really.
But I'm glad old vinyl is still around because lots of good music has never been reissued on CD and often the last vinyl release was 40 something years ago.
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