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Can amplifier speed and resolution be measured?

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solderdude

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How did you circumnavigate the inherent non-linear behavior of the LDR. The light sensitive material used is not only light sensitive but also voltage dependent. This causes the harmonic distortion which normal resistors/potmeters etc don't have. At least it is below measurable limits.

Most people on this forum like to see objective measurements/tests and trust a (well made) suite of measurements more than subjective findings.
There are other forums that prefer subjective findings over scientific explanations.
Most folks here are aware that subjective impressions is that what most people care about in the end but like to see those validated by a set of measurements.

Measurements can dig lots deeper and more accurate/repeatable than the ears/brain can and the argument 'music is different' and 'real loads change a lot' is demonstrable with null testing so here too there is no need to resort to (quite flawed) personal observations using ones auditory system to 'prove' something 'sounds' better.
Sounds 'better' does not equal performs better.
 

Dialectic

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My product is not the Tortuga LDR3 ( I appreciate Morten's enormous work in LDR's and he and I on different sides of the globe -get on very well ) As I say I have asked Armin to measure my product by today, leaving a message at the designated spot. I appreciate your emphasis with this forum is with principally visual measurements, followed by audio impressions so we won't drift with subjective/ measured debates.
Who is Armin?
 

Frank Dernie

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The history of 20-20khz is tied to the restrictions of the Nyquist /Shannon sampling theorem.
David Blackmers article and video simply identified and looked beyond these restrictions which
I think is pretty clever to step beyond restrictions

My own experience is with with circuitry using cascode and common base or gate circuits.
My understanding is that the human “audible frequency range” had been determined decades before the theory of digital recording was being studied.
20Hz-20kHz is the approximation from studies on very many people. The equal loudness curves are an average of many test subjects but 20-20k were the outer bounds of the tests, very, very few people can actually hear 20kHz even at very high levels, in fact the threshold of hearing and the threshold of pain are about the same at 20kHz so recording or reproducing more is unlikely to be worthwhile based on all the work done on hearing.
The CD standard of 44.1kHz sampling is fine IME.
 

stereo coffee

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W
How did you circumnavigate the inherent non-linear behavior of the LDR. The light sensitive material used is not only light sensitive but also voltage dependent. This causes the harmonic distortion which normal resistors/potmeters etc don't have. At least it is below measurable limits.

Most people on this forum like to see objective measurements/tests and trust a (well made) suite of measurements more than subjective findings.
There are other forums that prefer subjective findings over scientific explanations.
Most folks here are aware that subjective impressions is that what most people care about in the end but like to see those validated by a set of measurements.

Measurements can dig lots deeper and more accurate/repeatable than the ears/brain can and the argument 'music is different' and 'real loads change a lot' is demonstrable with null testing so here too there is no need to resort to (quite flawed) personal observations using ones auditory system to 'prove' something 'sounds' better.
Sounds 'better' does not equal performs better.

With a lot of circuitry developed over 11 years , voltage anode to cathode on series pairs ( without the circuits start circuit that enables
voltage to be taken below the normal start point of 1.3v ) - ranging just 0.82v, and the shunt pair 0.162v

The next words of your first paragraph are dipping sadly into generalisations, as a low voltage variance may indeed
cancel out distortion, below that of pots. The conventional pots history shows it was never intended to pass audio signals
being invented by Mary Hallock Greenewalt. I would expect data of the distortion of pots to be finally revealed in your
objective suite of measurements.

I have as I said requested review with Amir - until then.
 

stereo coffee

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My understanding is that the human “audible frequency range” had been determined decades before the theory of digital recording was being studied.
20Hz-20kHz is the approximation from studies on very many people. The equal loudness curves are an average of many test subjects but 20-20k were the outer bounds of the tests, very, very few people can actually hear 20kHz even at very high levels, in fact the threshold of hearing and the threshold of pain are about the same at 20kHz so recording or reproducing more is unlikely to be worthwhile based on all the work done on hearing.
The CD standard of 44.1kHz sampling is fine IME.

Davids Life Beyond 20khz article http://wilson-benesch.com/reviews/Life_Beyond_20kHz_Blackmer_SVC_Sep-1998.pdf
gives insight that there is with our auditory system ability to perceive - not necessarily directly hear
frequencies above 20khz, that influence the frequencies we can hear. Suggest you have a read of the article, it is quite interesting.
 

stereo coffee

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Sorry, what am I measuring???
I followed the procedure for asking for measurement, and I am quite happy to wait as I am sure there are many others before me.
the product is a three input LDR attenuator kit.
 

solderdude

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With a lot of circuitry developed over 11 years , voltage anode to cathode on series pairs ( without the circuits start circuit that enables
voltage to be taken below the normal start point of 1.3v ) - ranging just 0.82v, and the shunt pair 0.162v

I can only assume you are talking about the LED's you are driving. That's not what I was asking.

Was interested in how you circumvent the LDR properties which are not only light sensitive but also voltage dependent.
I assume the audio input is attenuated by the LDR's which are both light and voltage dependent.
One series and one shunt as most of these attenuators work.
When there is an audio voltage across the LDR harmonics are added because of non-linearities.
Did you solve this by 'modulating' the LED current with the audio input voltage to compensate for the non linearities ?

b.t.w. that article is 20 years old and have not seen any compelling evidence ultrasonics contribute to sound. Only theories that claim this.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Davids Life Beyond 20khz article http://wilson-benesch.com/reviews/Life_Beyond_20kHz_Blackmer_SVC_Sep-1998.pdf
gives insight that there is with our auditory system ability to perceive - not necessarily directly hear
frequencies above 20khz, that influence the frequencies we can hear. Suggest you have a read of the article, it is quite interesting.
I read about this sort of theory about 2001 and tried it out with super tweeter added to my system and some high res recording i was unable to detect whether the super tweeter was on or off by listening. My friend (who made the super tweeters, he is a R&D engineer designing speakers for many clients) thought he could.
I haven’t re-checked since, the super tweeters are gathering dust.
Maybe Blackmer is right and the rest of the world wrong to steal a quote from one of my old colleagues?
 

bravomail

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There is good technic called blind AB testing. You'll need simple AB switch controlled by another person. You should not beknowing which source is on. Sources should be volume matched. I've seen video where people say that Mp3 128k sounds better than WAV. Controller person tears up his hair and cries. In another video the guy buys Denon speaker amp for around $200 to replace his older Sony amp (~100 price). His subjective measurements tell him that Denon is immensely better. Simple frequency response run reveals Denon having rolled off highs. He then mods Denon (some capacitors shorted or removed, don't remember), frequency respnse improves to flat. He then AB tests with volumes matched. He could not tell the f..ing difference! Psychology is very powerful thing!
 

stereo coffee

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I can only assume you are talking about the LED's you are driving. That's not what I was asking.

Was interested in how you circumvent the LDR properties which are not only light sensitive but also voltage dependent.
I assume the audio input is attenuated by the LDR's which are both light and voltage dependent.
One series and one shunt as most of these attenuators work.
When there is an audio voltage across the LDR harmonics are added because of non-linearities.
Did you solve this by 'modulating' the LED current with the audio input voltage to compensate for the non linearities ?

You are I think confusing open faced LDR types with encapsulated audio purpose LDR's which are not light sensitive.
The attached datasheet shows the NSL32SR3 and its specifications. http://lunainc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/NSL-32SR3.pdf

I hope to turn around your understanding of audio purpose LDR's. Audio purpose encapsulated LDR's are actually quite linear in terms of reproducing music, however they require quite a leap of faith away from conventional thinking to start showing you their actual capability, namely that the anode and cathode of the led are properly driven and not just assumed as " anything will do to drive after all its just an led ", somewhat lazy modicum of thinking. Have I got your attention ?, or are we lost already in the anything will do and it can't make any difference room. If so let me open the door for you.

A lazy LDR circuit would see a 7805 with parallel resistance and parallel capacitance - and internal resistance of 4.3k between output and ground
in parallel with the anode and cathode. We begin by removing any such parallels.

All of the needs of a NSL32SR3 in terms of being an attenuator are met by having just 2ma or less of current available,we begin by creating a high impedance away from the general supply, we then make the series anodes separated from shunt anodes - however some minor conversation still between the two is beneficial. The signal side is a simple L pad there is no wired modulation or cross connection from signal side to anode and cathode side. Whatever we do on the anode and cathode ( you will have to accept my experience of 11 years ) either improves or does not improve the signal side ability to be a average to good vs exceptionally good variable resistor.

Where the circuitry attends to all of the anode and cathode needs ( and they are believe me - beyond vast ) the LDR' signal side if you are good or beginning to be good at what they really need - responds by widening the audio sound stage to accommodate, and in the process I perceive ( awaiting measured confirmation ) becoming more linear.

I know you dislike subjective ( which I am doing my best to change with having my product measured ) but here is some anecdotal independent comment. Look away if you really have to.
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/to...peed-diy-ldr-pre-vs-stereo-coffee-diy/?page=2

An approach I experimented with many years ago was to use 4069 inverters to see how far one could invert and reinvert each inverter
with DC supply the anodes and see if it changed the resultant audio, I stopped at 18 inversions realising the importance of creating a very high impedance. My efforts were then toward having the volume potentiometer in the cathode half and sensing and re using the available current.
I no longer use 4069's , but instead a combination of p channel mosfets , n channel mosfets, thyristors, voltage reference ic, a dual opamp , TL431's LM336's ( the 336 is a great device ) LM317's , 2N5088's etc.

I hope that begins to show there is far more than you first think or have read elsewhere to audio purpose LDR's which are and will always be
a great alternative method of attenuation.
 

SIY

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Presumably, you have done your own measurements to support your claims of superior performance compared with potentiometers? Where have you published these measurements?

If this is the Chris Daly stuff, he is notoriously ignorant of basic electronics, so I would not hold out much hope that there's any actual engineering or performance involved.
 
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stereo coffee

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Basic electronics sadly does not work sufficiently well with LDR's .. if it did, I would be the first to use it.
Please contain the nasty comments for your next life.
 

SIY

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So you have no data supporting your performance claims? If you do, please provide it before asking other people to enact labor on your behalf. If you don't, then hawking your product on audio forums is rather unethical, IMO.
 

stereo coffee

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So you have no data supporting your performance claims? If you do, please provide it before asking other people to enact labor on your behalf. If you don't, then hawking your product on audio forums is rather unethical, IMO.

I refer to the offer on this forum, and I qualify as a Happy person and I also enjoy discussing audio. "Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details."
 

amirm

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stereo coffee

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How did we get into the topics of LDRs???

Anyway, here are measurements of one from own member @tomchr : https://www.neurochrome.com/tortuga-audio-ldr3/

Showing as I see it, digital techniques of driving the anode and cathode are not kind to measured performance.
There are many differences one LDR offering to the next, which just goes to show they are a device needing
much needed further exploration - and never giving up on.
 
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