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Can A Stand Mounted Speaker Be Considered "High Fidelity?"

DanielT

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It's a good question. There's lots of environmental factors that could prevent one from fully experiencing the bottom octaves, like neighbors sharing walls. Hi-Fi or no, it ain't gonna happen without blowback. There is also a given person's musical taste. Me, I want too much bass. Somebody else? Not so much. I suspect there are many people who would be happy with something that goes down to 70hz because they don't favor music with deep bass.
What is the music that digs deepest (generally)? Classical music and techno ... can I imagine but regular pop, jazz, rock, blues down to 20 Hz? Does it get even below 30 Hz, (usually)?

Home theater, on the other hand, I can understand.

Then what you mention to weigh in, neighbors (who can get annoyed at bass even in the higher registers).

Suspect it's like power on an amp. You want a headroom (for safety's sake).:cool:

Edit:
Then everyone knows that even if a small bookshelf speaker can dig a little deep, it does not mean that it will sound particularly good in those bass regions. Especially not if it has a bass driver that in itself has a high distortion to start with. It may sound.. hm ok at low volume. At best ok on normal listening volume but damn bad distorting on higher volume. But that's something most people quickly figure out and add one or more subwoffers.:)

.... There is something I point out here:


Consider that distance, the placement of the small speakers and the sofa ( it's not my stuff or my listening room but people can do exactly what they want as long as they are happy and cheerful:) )
 

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dshreter

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Does it make sense to consider a stand mounted speaker a reasonable purchase for someone who has the goal of "High Fidelity?" Even if it measures picture perfect within it's frequency range?
For the purpose of music production? No, you need to be able to inspect the full frequency range of a recording.

Listening for enjoyment? Absolutely it is reasonable - tons of reasons already given, ranging from some genres not possessing extreme low frequencies to “high definition” not possessing a singular definition.

Do you want to argue semantics? Photos taken with portrait and wide angle lenses can both be sharp (high fidelity). I don’t think anyone would suggest the portrait was not so just because the field of view was narrow. I would argue the same for audio, that despite a narrower view of the source material, a limited frequency response can also be characterized as high fidelity.
 

Mart68

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'high fidelity' in audio is about fidelity to the recording, not to the performance (if there was one) - so recording quality is totally irrelevant.

A speaker with bass extension down to 70 Hz but no lower can therefore allow high fidelity but not absolute/maximum fidelity.

Therefore you don't need FR 20hz-20Khz response or good quality recordings to have 'high fidelity' reproduction.
 

killdozzer

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Look, you should really leave at least 10% chance that your question or assumption is wrong.

Do you honestly believe these speakers have problems faithfully reproducing audio material:
1644913623046.png
 
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MattHooper

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Look, you should really leave at least 10% chance that your question or assumption is wrong.

Do you honestly believe these speakers have problems faithfully reproducing audio material:
View attachment 186776

Seem to be the Kef speakers? (45Hz – 35kHz).

Nice speakers, though I'm not sure this answers the point of the thread question.
 
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MattHooper

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I appreciate the range of views in this thread.

As I've mentioned, I'm not myself making any particular claim about High Fidelity or which speakers would fit the description. I've just been interested in how people work through the implications of that term as it is often used in this forum (e.g. "accurately reproducing the recorded signal" or however one wants to phrase it).

While I do appreciate many of the things that go along with High Fidelity as often advocated here - e.g. lower distortion which will yield greater differentiation and nuance between recordings, between instrumental timbre etc - some sort of "accurate reproduction of the signal" is not my personal end goal per se. Hence why I put this question to others, based on their view of High Fidelity.
 

Anatoly70

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Hi there,
JBL Everest... 174kg... obviously not standmount... ooops and not "high fidelity" either
Frequency Response 45Hz – 50kHz (–6dB)
And no dedicated sub...
1644954734266.png
 
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MattHooper

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I heard those at a show. Bloody impressive with orchestral music!














(Too bad it was such low fidelity though :D)
 

Goodman

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Hey folks, just curious about opinions on this.

Based off other discussions about the pursuit of High Fidelity - in this case interpreted as reproducing the encoded source signal as accurately as possible - we will come to possibly ambiguous areas. E.g. you could have a tower speaker that plays from 20Hz to 20k, but with some deviations from neutral in the frequency response here or there. On the other hand you could have a stand mounted speaker that measures beautifully neutral through it's frequency range, but if it only goes down to, say, 45 or 40 Hz, it isn't capable of producing content that is on a lot of recordings. It's "distortion by omission." So which owner could lay more claim to getting closer to "high fidelity" than the other? The owner of the speaker that can reproduce the full spectrum of sound, though with some deviation, or the owner of the stand mounted speaker that is neutral but which omits plenty of source detail in it's own way?

The obvious answer to the High Fidelity question would be "A full range system (and if you have a stand mount speaker, employ subs) that has been treated/DSP'd to play the full sound spectrum accurately." Hence you have plenty of people owning subs. Though in the last poll there were still 30% of ASR respondents who didn't use subs (and likely among those, people who aren't using truly full range speakers).

Also, in a forum devoted to high fidelity, we see Amirm giving "recommendations" to plenty of stand mounted speakers that omit the lower bass frequencies.

So...I'm looking for your various opinions. For "stand mounted speaker/monitor, think of those limited in bass frequency response, unaccompanied by a subwoofer. One could also include any speaker that doesn't go down to 20Hz, but I'm using stand mount/monitors as an easy example:

Does it make sense to consider a stand mounted speaker a reasonable purchase for someone who has the goal of "High Fidelity?" Even if it measures picture perfect within it's frequency range?
The answer is no. Adding a subwoofer that has not been engineered or designed for that particular speaker is a bad fixer. I don't care how accurate the stand mounts are, I prefer a complete speaker, even of lesser quality, with full range capability.
 

ahofer

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The answer is no. Adding a subwoofer that has not been engineered or designed for that particular speaker is a bad fixer. I don't care how accurate the stand mounts are, I prefer a complete speaker, even of lesser quality, with full range capability.
Totally disagree. Proper positioning/DSP/crossover/delay management can match any high quality subwoofers not only to the speakers but to the listener's room. What other elements are necessary?
 

Goodman

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Totally disagree. Proper positioning/DSP/crossover/delay management can match any high quality subwoofers not only to the speakers but to the listener's room. What other elements are necessary?
You're right, it can, possibly be done with all the above, but why not buy a proper and complete speaker with a 12 or 15 inch woofer and save all the hassle?
 

Pdxwayne

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You're right, it can, possibly be done with all the above, but why not buy a proper and complete speaker with a 12 or 15 inch woofer and save all the hassle?
It is always about the room for low frequencies.

With speakers only, you still need to deal with room nulls and peaks. With speakers only, dealing with low bass nulls will not be as easy as using subs. You won't be able to move the speakers as freely to deal with nulls, while still maintain best stereo imaging.
 

Spocko

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The answer is no. Adding a subwoofer that has not been engineered or designed for that particular speaker is a bad fixer. I don't care how accurate the stand mounts are, I prefer a complete speaker, even of lesser quality, with full range capability.
Why? More often than not, if a "full range" speaker is capable of anything under 80Hz (or below your room's transition frequency), then it will be detrimentally affected by room modes (null cancellations and peaks) that is best addressed by moving the low frequency drivers to more optimal positions - decoupling the bass drivers from the rest of the system is the solution. Obviously, it would be best if the speaker maker did this from the get go so that the crossover point with the bass driver has already been validated, but then that's what active EQ/DSP/bass-management is for right?
 

SuperDave

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You're right, it can, possibly be done with all the above, but why not buy a proper and complete speaker with a 12 or 15 inch woofer and save all the hassle?

How much would a pair of speakers capable of descending below 20Hz without notable loss while still being that good in the upper ranges cost, and once you owned them, would that low end source be placed appropriately for the room once you got the rest of the frequency range in the correct position? And if you're using separates (as I am) without access to DSP/EQ, how can you without decoupling the bass to an optimal room location?

I've paired KEF R3's with a Hsu sub, and despite the fact that the placements and sub settings aren't yet finalized, I sincerely doubt that even the educated high-end owners here would argue that the music I'm currently hearing isn't "high fidelity" right_now.
 

ahofer

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You're right, it can, possibly be done with all the above, but why not buy a proper and complete speaker with a 12 or 15 inch woofer and save all the hassle?
Because it makes the room-matching part much more difficult, if not impossible.
 

fineMen

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You're right, it can, possibly be done with all the above, but why not buy a proper and complete speaker with a 12 or 15 inch woofer and save all the hassle

Distributed subs could be adopted to room acoustics, taming the infamous peaks and nulls. Additionally subs reduce the need for high excursion with low to midrange speakers. It is relatively easy to design an excellent low-mid section, while keeping size in check, if only the bandwith is limited.

The bass, especially if again bandwith limited, is not that sensitive to elevated levels of distortion.

The low/mid-to-high-section shall be a three-way, the additional sub makes it a four way.

I personally think it is a logical move to tailor the costly--in space and money, bass-section to the actual need. If the need changes due to changed room size, the bass can be substituted accordingly. The other part, selected for excellence can be kept independently. For obvious reasons even a 12" bass is a bit over the top for most. In particular if it must be positioned right--and twice!, for good mid to high coverage also, once it should share the same enclosure.

Alas, some drive it too far. A regular 6" driver sealed cannot be considered "good enough"** to play down below 150Hz or so. A ported set-up doesn't help in this regard. So, if the term "stand mounted" means such incapacity, a sub wouldn't help too much.

** = no compromise in quality
 
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Head_Unit

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Is there any precise definition of "high fidelity"
(answer a) "High Fidelity" means it is "digital ready" to play the full range of distortions that were on the ancient, decayed analog tape the digital bits were scraped from...
(answer b) "High Fidelity" means it has more fidelity than "Low Fidelity"
 

ROOSKIE

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Standmount speakers (or any speaker that is bass limited) without subwoofers are lower fidelity than with.
There is no debate, how can there be?

I have used many standmount/monitors with and without subwoofers.
I can say that with every single stand mount I have tested something was missing without subs vs with subs.
That means lower fidelity.
They may still be very, very enjoyable on their own, enjoyment and fidelity are different.
The missing bass is missing so the fidelity is lower than if it was not.
Would I rather have a KEF reference 1 vs an ELAC B5.2 with a pair of subs, yes I would rather have the KEF.
Would I rather have a KEF reference 1 without a sub vs with a suitable one? Deff with.

I have music that I love to hear that is so different without full bass it isn't even funny and other music suffers much less if at all.

I feel similarly about dynamics, I really do appreciate a dynamic speaker. I can enjoy a less dynamic speaker, though I appreciate the added perceived fidelity that good dynamics adds.
 

Spocko

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I can say that with every single stand mount I have tested something was missing without subs vs with subs.
That means lower fidelity.
Agreed - monitors need subs with bass management DSP for "high fidelity" because without multi-sub management you will have nulls which by definition is lower fidelity! You could do a single sub as nearfield (sitting literally an inch from the sub) and that should give you full bandwidth without the nulls, you'll just have to EQ the peaks to taste LOL
 
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