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CAD grounding box, eliminating 'noise'

fas42

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#3
Good to see more movement in this direction. This is obviously taking a more "serious" approach than some of other devices out there, that appear to have "silly" stuff inside of them, etc - but it would be addressing the same issues. Noise factors have been the Achilles Heel of audio for too long, and most people have largely ignored it until recently - my experiments were DIY approaches to sorting out, understanding the same factors - and there are probably a hundred ways of getting the desired end results.

Is it worth doing this "excessive fiddling" to get extra "refinement" to the gear? Too bloody right, it is!! 'Cause it's the difference between loud hifi sound, and realistic recreation of a musical event - if one wants the latter then something like this box might just enable that significant "upgrade" ...
 

Blumlein 88

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#4
Yes, if you are running short of the Recommended Daily Allowance of BS please read this paper.

First we do a little credibility building by saying we worked at Tektronix and Xerox and we are an EE. Hurray! An expert. (never mind the mention of his superior award winning USB cables....a credibility buster with me at least). He does state his product is based upon his theories and experience. And listening. Lots of subjective empirical listening. (which means he threw his EE background out the window to pursue esoteric 'belief' about ultrasonic noise effecting what we hear). Well at least he told us all that though in a way your garden variety audiophile will either misinterpret or not even notice. At one point we get:


circuits are all sensitive to HF noise. In our experience, reducing unnecessary high frequency noise in the system gives clearly perceptible sonic benefits.

Of course this ignores the fact in our wider experience all humans are sensitive to cognitive noise about sonic benefits does it not? With merely redesign and listen methodology we would hardly expect anything except uniquely perceived benefits regardless of any technical measures.

The description of a sandwich of materials used in aerospace and eletronics industries allows ground noise between 700 khz and 10 ghz to be turned into heat so the paper says. So we have moved beyond Scandanavian farmer kitty litter to actual space composite sandwiches. Too bad it costs nearly $2k. Would like to see it cut open for what is inside.

Stuff like this is why I read of a system on another forum today. In order to get real good sound someone had multiple USB cleaners, filters, converters to SPDIF (sounds better than USB you know, USB is noisy) followed by cleaners and reclockers of SPIDF to connect to a $240 DAC which itself has a USB input. So rather than laptop USB to Belden gold USB cable to DAC USB input the fellow had around $1200 of stuff to connect DAC to laptop on a $240 DAC. I would suggest maybe getting a $600 DAC to upgrade there if you wish, and spending $600 more on his also unimpressive speakers. Or just spending the $1200 on some speakers where he could notice real genuine big time improvements. So I don't know. Maybe I should suggest he buy this $1850 grounding box next. He might go for that.
 

fas42

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#5
"circuits are all sensitive to HF noise. In our experience, reducing unnecessary high frequency noise in the system gives clearly perceptible sonic benefits"

Of course this ignores the fact in our wider experience all humans are sensitive to cognitive noise about sonic benefits does it not? With merely redesign and listen methodology we would hardly expect anything except uniquely perceived benefits regardless of any technical measures.

The description of a sandwich of materials used in aerospace and eletronics industries allows ground noise between 700 khz and 10 ghz to be turned into heat so the paper says. So we have moved beyond Scandanavian farmer kitty litter to actual space composite sandwiches. Too bad it costs nearly $2k. Would like to see it cut open for what is inside.
The money side of this always opens the door to skepticism. If you're a DIY man like myself, then you can experiment with close to zero cost materials to verify that doing something here matters, has an audible impact - but if you're a consumer you either have to add extra bits like this, to see if it makes a difference, or buy components that are engineered in such a way that they don't have a problem. Either approach costs money, end of story.

Some systems sound better, or different than others. Swapping speakers endlessly will achieve these results, and reorganising electronics also does it. Personally, the benefits from the electrical side are far greater than the speaker side, especially if one is chasing "convincing" sound.
 

amirm

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#6
It is pretty shameful stuff coming from an electrical engineer:

"It is our belief that this HF noise affects the performance of the electrical devices used in your audio components, degrading overall sound quality. In particular, we believe that devices such as operational amplifiers, transistors and DAC chips used in modern audio 5 circuits are all sensitive to HF noise. In our experience, reducing unnecessary high frequency noise in the system gives clearly perceptible sonic benefits."

Belief? How about some measurements especially since he references an analog devices app note on how to do that?
 

Blumlein 88

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#7
It is pretty shameful stuff coming from an electrical engineer:

"It is our belief that this HF noise affects the performance of the electrical devices used in your audio components, degrading overall sound quality. In particular, we believe that devices such as operational amplifiers, transistors and DAC chips used in modern audio 5 circuits are all sensitive to HF noise. In our experience, reducing unnecessary high frequency noise in the system gives clearly perceptible sonic benefits."

Belief? How about some measurements especially since he references an analog devices app note on how to do that?
Yes, that belief was a big red flag word to me as well reading this from an EE. Do you think Tektronix makes it scopes and instrumentation gear based upon 'belief'? The answer is ridiculously obvious.
 

RayDunzl

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#8
"One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth."

I'd like to hear about some more "laws of electronics".

Where are they listed?

Does electrical current evaporate? Like water?

Does it condense? Boil? Freeze? Flow downhill? Puddle? Rain? Make 6 pointed electro-snowflakes?

I'm beginning to feel I don't have a clue anymore.
 

Ken Newton

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#9
I see two jacks on one end of the box, but didn't see clear direction on how it is to be used. Does anyone know exactly how/where they intend that this thing be connected to an audio component?
 

fas42

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#11
It is pretty shameful stuff coming from an electrical engineer:

"It is our belief that this HF noise affects the performance of the electrical devices used in your audio components, degrading overall sound quality. In particular, we believe that devices such as operational amplifiers, transistors and DAC chips used in modern audio 5 circuits are all sensitive to HF noise. In our experience, reducing unnecessary high frequency noise in the system gives clearly perceptible sonic benefits."

Belief? How about some measurements especially since he references an analog devices app note on how to do that?
Huhhh? Over on diyAudio, which has a bunch of engineers as hard nosed as any, there has been quite a bit of discussion on then sensitivity of some opamps to RF, particularly regarding the well considered LM4562 family, to the point that some won't use this chip - there's an issue with the input stage being prone to rectifying RF noise, and so special care needs to be taken with the implementation. There are not generic issues, just that some parts are susceptible to various noise factors, and that will require good design to prevent issues.
 

fas42

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#12
"One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth."
Is there a problem with the concept that current follows the path of least resistance to complete a circuit?
 

amirm

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#13
Huhhh? Over on diyAudio, which has a bunch of engineers as hard nosed as any, there has been quite a bit of discussion on then sensitivity of some opamps to RF, particularly regarding the well considered LM4562 family, to the point that some won't use this chip - there's an issue with the input stage being prone to rectifying RF noise, and so special care needs to be taken with the implementation. There are not generic issues, just that some parts are susceptible to various noise factors, and that will require good design to prevent issues.
Which one of those DIY engineers then suggested connecting the chassis with a single wire to some sandwich of metal in plastic box to deal with such RF issues?
 

RayDunzl

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#14
Is there a problem with the concept that current follows the path of least resistance to complete a circuit?
Not at all.

Show me which of the potentials in my gear originated someplace "down into the earth" and need to return there to complete a circuit.
 

Blumlein 88

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#15
"One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth."

I'd like to hear about some more "laws of electronics".

Where are they listed?

Does electrical current evaporate? Like water?
Maybe all this hi frequency noise is like rain, and it puddles up in our gear. Maybe we just need an electro umbrella. Or the electro version of the Bounty towel picker upper. It will just blot up electro puddles.

Does it condense? Boil? Freeze? Flow downhill? Puddle? Rain? Make 6 pointed electro-snowflakes?
I am guessing icosahedron electro-flakes. Cause it sounds way cooler.
I'm beginning to feel I don't have a clue anymore.
I do believe cluelessness is a big factor in grounding products for audio gear.
 

RayDunzl

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#16
Is there a problem with the concept that current follows the path of least resistance to complete a circuit?
It will also take multiple paths of differing resistance simultaneously if available.

So, YES, I do have a problem with "the concept that current follows the path of least resistance to complete a circuit".
 

Blumlein 88

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#17
I really like the description from the review of this product:

“Connect a GC1 to a digital output of your CD player or DAC, or a USB socket on your server, and what should you expect? No prizes for suggesting a substantial drop in noise floor – but what does that actually mean in musical terms. The most immediately obvious difference is that the background gets way blacker with separation and clarity both improving, along with instrumental texture, colour, and character. There’s a dramatic reduction in grain and a new sense of crispness and focus to events, along with increased dynamic range, the ability of the music to jump in level, and the speed with which the instruments respond to input. So far so good, but the really important stuff is lurking behind the obvious, cosmetic changes. That increase in precision and clarity, colour, and harmonic accuracy brings with it an increased sense of rhythmic precision and articulation in the playing. You can simply hear more clearly and accurately where each note starts (and stops) and how it relates to the other notes around it. Phrasing becomes more explicit, there’s greater dramatic contrast in the performance and a greater sense of ensemble, the band playing together. In broad musical terms, the performance gains presence and immediacy, emotionaland dramatic impact. It sounds more like people and they sound like better musicians. Which is all pretty impressive stuff. But it gets better…”

"IT TOTALLY RE-CALIBRATED MY EXPECTATIONS OF COMPUTER AUDIO"
 

fas42

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#19
It will also take multiple paths of differing resistance simultaneously if available.

So, YES, I do have a problem with "the concept that current follows the path of least resistance to complete a circuit".
Yes, but the quantity of current that flows through the higher resistance is far less - the old exercise of resistors in parallel: what percentage of the current flows through the resistor that is 10 x, 100 x the value of the reference resistor. If there are multiple paths to complete a circuit the current through each will always be proportionate to the ratios of the resistances, or better said, the impedances - so, give a voltage difference a superbly low impedance path, amongst many far less well endowed, and guess where the vast bulk of the current flows?
 

RayDunzl

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#20
guess where the vast bulk of the current flows?
Not to Earth.

The original "I'm an EE so I know things you can only imagine!" silliness, which for some reason, you have chosen to defend:

"One of the laws of electronics is that electrical current (like water) will always take the easiest path down into the earth."
 

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