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By request: Any appetite for/chance of a "vintage electronics measurement and discussion" section?

Mnyb

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I'd love to compare the (already measured) Advents to Dynaco A25s. I'd like to match the myths to reality, not in absolute terms (old crap is old crap), but on a comparrative basis.
Interesting general idea lifting these products out of the haze of history and tell what they actually where :)

There was(is?) not always complete science about how to make stuff some used the best knowledge of their time some just whinged it based on myths ( just like now ).

There is always something interesting in the turns things takes before settling into a formula.

Some older speakers could have decent drivers but bewildering acoustical property’s or the other way we’ll controlled directivity like large horns but weird drivers and horn shapes and distortion issues otherwise .

Some old amps shoved interesting and innovative design but had other shortcomings that made them differ more than modern products?
 
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mhardy6647

mhardy6647

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Maybe we could get @amirm to measure a Karlson.


1677639797438.png

source: http://www.hifilit.com/Karlson/Karlson.htm

I have an ugly but intact Fukuin (Pioneer) K-12 "knockoff" -- one might refer to it as a Karlson klone, I suppose. ;)




I have a real Karlson K-15, too -- but that rascal is way too large to ship! :eek:
 

Mnyb

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Maybe we could get @amirm to measure a Karlson.


View attachment 268386
source: http://www.hifilit.com/Karlson/Karlson.htm

I have an ugly but intact Fukuin (Pioneer) K-12 "knockoff" -- one might refer to it as a Karlson klone, I suppose. ;)




I have a real Karlson K-15, too -- but that rascal is way too large to ship! :eek:
You don’t think the Klippel will run away and hide from it :)

But these examples are telling, seems like acoustics and transducer technology was lagging behind already way back but they had novel ideas and did their best. This was bit before the theory of TS parameters where fully fleshed out . One has to wonder exactly how this thing was developed.

And marketing hyperbole seems very similar to today’s but wall shaking bass and wide frequency response are testable claims. :)
Today’s sales pitch would use more vague meaningless superlatives .
 

Prana Ferox

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I think that caveat needs to be first and foremost in pretty much every report; vintage means every piece will have its quirks.

Also, I request that power measurements be given in both modern and 70's watts
 

DanielT

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I'm more than happy to help in this area. Realistically however, the vintage subforum would need to be wider in scope and have the same breakdowns of sub categories to work- otherwise it will become a mess really fast. With people just posting giant pictures of anything and everything unrelated to the subject at hand.

I've considered suggesting this for several years, but care and thought needs to go into the structure and how to hive off vintage vs modern/current products, how reviews should look (what should be tested and how it's presented) etc. What is considered vintage is a constantly moving line to draw.

Obviously, Audiokarma exists for this and has done since 2002 but the emphasis is very much subjective and discussion based. Throw in objective test results too much and members eyes glaze over. That said, it is an excellent, friendly site.
Hmm, that's right. Maybe like this, or are there too many subsections/sub categories? It's mostly suggestions for subsections. Then if you choose that structure on the vintage section, there doesn't need to be so many subsections: :)

I'm just throwing out some ideas on subsections at random now:
-Vintage
(Review and discussion of hardware and related topics to vintage HiFi)
Subsection under Vintage:
-Tests and measurements
-Troubleshooting
-Cleaning and oxide removal (perhaps too narrow for a subsection)
-Looking for vintage spare parts
-Vintage we owned or have
-Vintage finds
-Vintage fairs
-Vintage speakers
-Vintage amplifiers and receivers
 
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restorer-john

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Hmm, that's right. Maybe like this, or are there too many subsections/sub categories? It's mostly suggestions for subsections. Then if you choose that structure on the vintage section, there doesn't need to be so many subsections: :)

-Vintage
(Review and discussion of hardware and related topics to vintage HiFi)
Subsection
-Tests and measurements
-Troubleshooting
-Cleaning and oxide removal (perhaps too narrow for a subsection)
-Looking for vintage spare parts
-Vintage we owned or have
-Vintage finds
-Vintage fairs
-Vintage speakers
-Vintage amplifiers and receivers

Good suggestions. :)

Vintage
(Review and discussion of hardware and related topics to vintage HiFi)

Subsections:
Reviews/Tests and Measurements
Vintage Repair and restoration (covers projects, tips, help, information etc)
WTB vintage parts
Stuff you've owned, collected or picked up for a steal
Vintage Speakers
Vintage Amplifiers/Receivers
Vintage Sources (CD players/Tuners/Cassette/RTR/TTs etc)
Vintage Miscellaneous
 

pma

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My 12 cents to Vintage Amplifiers section:

 

notsodeadlizard

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Leave the good old tired apparatus alone.
The measurement results are extremely dependent on the state of apparatus, measurement methods, measuring equipment, etc.
People love vintage technology not for the results of these measurements.
 

DanielT

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Leave the good old tired apparatus alone.
The measurement results are extremely dependent on the state of apparatus, measurement methods, measuring equipment, etc.
People love vintage technology not for the results of these measurements.
Already a given subject suitable for the vintage section of ASR.;) Measuring vintage or not, challenges and what conclusions can be drawn from the results?:)

Edit:
Screenshot_2023-03-01_105725.jpg


12 cents? Inflation is getting us all- it used to be 2 cents back in the vintage era. :)
It may have been so, but the price of some CD players, now considered to be vintage, cost an incredible amount of money new at the time. If I remember correctly. I never bought a super expensive CD player.
 
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DanielT

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When does a HiFi gadget become vintage? When it is 10 years old, 15 years, 20 years and so on?
Does it differ between different products? Is a five-year-old DAC to be considered vintage, for example? Considering the development of DACs in recent years.

Tip mhardy6647 add a poll to the thread. Vote:Vintage section on ASR? Answer options yes or no. Maybe more answer options?:)
 
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sergeauckland

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When does a HiFi gadget become vintage? When it is 10 years old, 15 years, 20 years and so on?
Does it differ between different products? Is a five-year-old DAC to be considered vintage, for example? Considering the development of DACs in recent years.

Tip mhardy6647 add a poll to the thread. Vote:Vintage section on ASR? Answer options yes or no. Maybe more answer options?:)
To me, vintage has to be before 1980, I would even accept before 1970, as after that, the issues with audio electronics were pretty much overcome. The. Interesting stuff for me is the mid 1950s to late 1960s when there were still lots to discuss, and designs were still trying to come up with solutions to distortion, noise, stability. Some successfully, many not so.
By the mid 1980s, it was all done and dusted, and I lost interest as all amplifiers were transparent, unless deliberately designed not to be, FM tuners as good as ever, turntables, cartridges and tape machines at their peak and even loudspeakers reached a standard some don't reach even today.
S.
 

DanielT

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To me, vintage has to be before 1980, I would even accept before 1970, as after that, the issues with audio electronics were pretty much overcome. The. Interesting stuff for me is the mid 1950s to late 1960s when there were still lots to discuss, and designs were still trying to come up with solutions to distortion, noise, stability. Some successfully, many not so.
By the mid 1980s, it was all done and dusted, and I lost interest as all amplifiers were transparent, unless deliberately designed not to be, FM tuners as good as ever, turntables, cartridges and tape machines at their peak and even loudspeakers reached a standard some don't reach even today.
S.
Hm, there is no universally accepted definition, or established age limit for what is considered vintage HiFi as far as I know (which makes it fun to discuss what vintage HiFi might is :)), but keep in mind that the 80s, the last year of that decade in 1989, was 34 years ago. I think HiFi from the 80s (and older) can be considered vintage.
(damn what time is ticking, 89 doesn't feel that long ago, 34 years... wow)

When it comes to cars, Sweden have an accepted definition, which also regulates the insurance system and inspection of these cars:

"Vintage vehicles are called motor vehicles of older model years. Normally nowadays it refers to cars that are older than 30 years, but historically this rule has applied to vehicles that are older than 20 years. The Swedish Transport Administration's definition for vintage vehicles is cars that are 30 years or older."


Edit:
I'm not saying it means 30 years for HiFi but just to show in another area. Or take vintage computers and software, whatever it is, so it's not really possible to draw any clear age limits parallels with HiFi to other vintage areas.:)
 
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mhardy6647

mhardy6647

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I think that caveat needs to be first and foremost in pretty much every report; vintage means every piece will have its quirks.

Also, I request that power measurements be given in both modern and 70's watts
... and today's products' quirks lie almost exclusively in firmware or software.
That's progress! ;)

I remain perplexed about the whole watts thing -- home theater (and car audio) took us back to the Wild West days (in the US) pre-FTC '74 days of power claims! In fairness, FTC '74 only applied to domestic two-channel audio power claims.. but, still... ;)
 

JeffS7444

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Sounds sort of fun, but I don't know that I'd have too much to contribute to, or gain from, it, save for sharing memories and maybe an occasional scan. Unless I've been looking in the wrong places, vintage pickings in my area have really dwindled over the years, and prices are eBay+ with tax and shipping figured in!
 

DanielT

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Good suggestions. :)

Vintage
(Review and discussion of hardware and related topics to vintage HiFi)

Subsections:
Reviews/Tests and Measurements
Vintage Repair and restoration (covers projects, tips, help, information etc)
WTB vintage parts
Stuff you've owned, collected or picked up for a steal
Vintage Speakers
Vintage Amplifiers/Receivers
Vintage Sources (CD players/Tuners/Cassette/RTR/TTs etc)
Vintage Miscellaneous
Good suggestion!:)

OR you just do (to begin with?) as when the Pro Audio Forum was started. There are now tests on pro stuff collected, if I understand the matter correctly? Same way with a vintage section. Put tests on vintage there. Subsections may come at a later stage.

Currently Amir does indeed measure and test some vintage (15% of all tests?), so why not gather these vintage tests under one vintage umbrella? In addition, for those who are not interested in vintage a helping hand is made. Then they know: A vintage test, I skip that.:)

Pro Audio Forum here on ASR:
Screenshot_2023-03-01_213127.jpg


 
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mhardy6647

mhardy6647

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This is the oldest digital gizmo I have AFAIK. Two of 'em, actually, and inexplicably. :facepalm:
No first generation stuff, unfortunately.



oops, I just did that thing again that @restorer-john complained about mentioned earlier, didn't I? ;)
 

eddantes

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This is the oldest digital gizmo I have AFAIK. Two of 'em, actually, and inexplicably. :facepalm:
No first generation stuff, unfortunately.



oops, I just did that thing again that @restorer-john complained about mentioned earlier, didn't I? ;)
It would be better if you also posted some brochures
 

tmtomh

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One simple option would be that if the forum software allows tags to be applied to posts, a "vintage gear review" tag (or something like that) could be created and reserved only for reviews of vintage gear that @amirm does (or that others do and Amir decides to promote to the front page). Then it would be simple matter for anyone to just search for the phrase in the search bar at the top of any page of the forum.
 
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