Buying advice Turntable without snake oil

[Marcus85]

There is a basic level of competence below which you are buying a toy, not a turntable. I'd suggest Rega P1, AT LP120. I don't know the FiiO at all.

A good €200 deck is OK - a poor one is not. I'd suggest that €200 is a minimum budget, and I'd say that includes a very basic cartridge/stylus that you will want to upgrade if you find that you play records regularly

I think I know what you mean... However, right now I'm listening to music on an almost hundred year old system, probably with an equally old needle, and I have to say, I really like it and it's a lot of fun....

 

[Jaxjax]

Sounds like snake oil to me!
You could also say your preference seems highly subjective and can’t really be quantified as "better"—it’s likely more of a nostalgic preference, maybe not just about sound quality alone.

Therefore, it’s hard—if not impossible—to suggest what would be good for you.

Well if he's liking a 100 year old music chest then the roll off is far from snake oil. It's like saying a tone control is snake oil.. I purposely dump my top ends off in digital & with vinyl my Grado does it for me Collecting records is a blast & actually far better investment then alot of things. I still have 1 of the 1st records outa Joan Jett's truck of her car. Would have never been able to give Samantha Fish a big old hug without the record she just got done writing on all over, on & on.. Digital is king for fidelity but doesn't me it's king for musical enjoyment

 

[mike70]

Any Technics direct drive.
I have a vintage SL-Q2 and a brand new 1200 mk7, with audio technica vm540ml ... amazing results.
A proper care to records and a proper manual first cleaning and ... very very good sound without perceptive noise or disturbing clicks / pops.

In that way (not without some "homework" as I mentioned), I enjoy digital and analog sound. My experience and my opinion.

 

[Chrispy]

What is a music chest? Haven't heard that term before.

A better player than the old Dual might be in order, but a fresh needle/cartridge for the old Dual may be all you need (and spindle for the big 12 inchers). At least you have a collection to play, wouldn't bother with a tt if you didn't have an existing collection to play. The aesthetic of physically playing records isn't something I find worth the bother....altho I still have a good tt/cartridge and all my vinyl I just don't use it much except for a bit of nostalgia here and there or to play something I don't have a digital version of. As to the "analog" sound, meh, snap crackle and pop are only so attractive. Good luck!

 

[Nippithon]

Going by design philosophy and looks, I like the list of turntables in your OP, and if my 35 year old Thorens ever quit on me, I'd be looking for similar minimalist designs. (I also like those Orbits that Apesbrain mentioned.) You can definitely do something enjoyable in your budget.

If, as you say, you enjoy the ritual of LPs, and you want the best analogue sound within your budget, consider avoiding any turntables with bluetooth, or built-in preamp (even if it switches off), or automation.

 

[Deleted member 77012]

What is a music chest?

This is what automated translators will say while using console or cabinet might be a better choice

 

[Marcus85]

Going by design philosophy and looks, I like the list of turntables in your OP, and if my 35 year old Thorens ever quit on me, I'd be looking for similar minimalist designs. (I also like those Orbits that Apesbrain mentioned.) You can definitely do something enjoyable in your budget.

If, as you say, you enjoy the ritual of LPs, and you want the best analogue sound within your budget, consider avoiding any turntables with bluetooth, or built-in preamp (even if it switches off), or automation.

Why would you not recommend buying a turntable with an integrated phono amplifier? If it can't be switched off, I can understand that a lot of flexibility is lost, but I actually found it practical to start with a switchable one.

 

[Marcus85]

This is what automated translators will say while using console or cabinet might be a better choice

You got me - you're absolutely right. To be precise, I'm talking about the music cabinet "Primaballerina Stereo 30" by Schaub-Lorenz.

 

[Eric Natural]

I would like to spend up to a maximum of 1000€ for a turntable including phono preamp

I like the following, for example:
Fiio TT13
Reloop Turn7
JBL Spinner...

add this small Canadian company to your list : https://www.fluance.com/rt85nwh-reference-high-fidelity-vinyl-turntable-white

 

[Robin L]

Why would you not recommend buying a turntable with an integrated phono amplifier? If it can't be switched off, I can understand that a lot of flexibility is lost, but I actually found it practical to start with a switchable one.

Probably because they are assuming that the performance of a built-in phono amp will be subpar. But this attitude doesn't reflect what you've been requesting. If the sound you seek is more like an antique record player, this isn't an issue at all. And if your gear doesn't have a phono in, this would simplify things.

 

[Drengur]

Disclaimer: I used to be a Rega dealer.
I would start with an entry level turntable with an integrated pre-amp. Both Rega and Project have good options there. If you find that you like listening to vinyl and all that stuff, you could upgrade later. Like many people have pointed out here, there are no good technical reasons to jump on board the vinyl wagon. The emotional reasons (which I think are valid) might change and why spend a lot of cash straight away?

 

[JeremyFife]

Mhm, you're probably right, but I also like the ritual of putting on a real record and I also have a few hundred old records from my parents, so the whole thing has a certain idealistic and emotional value for me.

One little 'worry bead'. Not trying to be negative, but something you should check before buy anything. You have old records, which have been played on an old system with an old stylus (nothing unusual about that).

Have a look at your records, a physical inspection for wear / scratches. See if you can take a few favourites and a few 'average condition' records and play them on a new turntable - at a friend's or a friendly store.

It is possible that they won't sound nice if they are too worn. Not just obvious pops and jumps but a basic loss of detail. They could actually sound "better" on your old system than if you upgrade. You'd be facing a large replacement bill, plus a loss of that nostalgic feeling you get playing your parent's records. Some of my Dad's records are unplayable - he never minded - so I look at the sleeve and stream a digital version.

Hopefully they are in good condition, but I'd check before you go ahead. You may be happier just keeping the existing Dual!

 

[Robin L]

One little 'worry bead'. Not trying to be negative, but something you should check before buy anything. You have old records, which have been played on an old system with an old stylus (nothing unusual about that).

Have a look at your records, a physical inspection for wear / scratches. See if you can take a few favourites and a few 'average condition' records and play them on a new turntable - at a friend's or a friendly store.

It is possible that they won't sound nice if they are too worn. Not just obvious pops and jumps but a basic loss of detail. They could actually sound "better" on your old system than if you upgrade. You'd be facing a large replacement bill, plus a loss of that nostalgic feeling you get playing your parent's records. Some of my Dad's records are unplayable - he never minded - so I look at the sleeve and stream a digital version.

Hopefully they are in good condition, but I'd check before you go ahead. You may be happier just keeping the existing Dual!

An older system, like yours, will not reproduce as much treble as a modern turntable/phono cartridge/phono preamp. And worn records have the most sonic problems in the upper registers. Another argument in favor of restoring your older LP player.

 

[JeffS7444]

Fiio TT13
Sony PS-LX310BT

I haven't tried any of the turntables listed, but these two don't seem to allow for cartridge replacement or user adjustments. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as the AT3600/AT91-series of cartridges is inexpensive and it sounds pretty good too.

None of the turntables in your list appear to have any sort of isolation, aside from the rubbery feet. Rekkord Audio appears to be a revival of the original Dual, and some of their turntables are equipped with isolated sub-chassis. https://www.rekkord-audio.com/en/turntables/f300/ It isn't a necessity, but if you tap on the plinth, you're less likely to hear it through your speakers.

 

[Thomas_A]

Hello everyone,

I would like to buy a turntable in the near future, but I don't really know anything about the subject yet. I would like a record player that delivers optimum sound quality but doesn't have to pay the high-end vodoo snake oil price. Well, I can well imagine that it is similar to other high-end equipment, that at some point a certain physical optimum is reached and everything else is just measurable but not audible differences at horrendous prices.

To cut a long story short, which affordable turntable would you recommend for optimum sound? I would like to spend up to a maximum of 1000€ for a turntable including phono preamp, preferably less. Is that realistic?

I like the following, for example:
Fiio TT13
Reloop Turn7
JBL Spinner
JBL TT350
Sony PS-LX310BT
Rega Planar
Various Pro-Ject models

A used Linn Axis mk2 (33/44 button on the platter board)? Only bad thing is expensive platter belt.

 

[DSJR]

If you’re buying re-releases or new music on vinyl I wouldn’t bother as it will very likely have been digitally processed at one point in the chain so it’s pretty pointless - may as well just stream it. (This is from someone who buys vinyl very regularly)

But if you want to play original recordings then the new technics 1500 has phono stage built in and just fits yr budget.

I was going to ask as well - does the OP have an existing vinyl collection, or is the intention to buy mostly new re-pressings?

Here in the UK, I should be pushing Rega as it's cheaper here, they've been developed and refined for over fifty years and after-care is second to none! HOWEVER, I've turned to the dark side in later years and the Technics is where I'd look myself now. Technics 100c/1500c decks can be got all over, they've also had some considerable refinement done, again over fifty years since the still excellent original SL1500 era and they just, well, work....... and stay working for decades with minimal service needed.

 

[DSJR]

I haven't tried any of the turntables listed, but these two don't seem to allow for cartridge replacement or user adjustments. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as the AT3600/AT91-series of cartridges is inexpensive and it sounds pretty good too.

None of the turntables in your list appear to have any sort of isolation, aside from the rubbery feet. Rekkord Audio appears to be a revival of the original Dual, and some of their turntables are equipped with isolated sub-chassis. https://www.rekkord-audio.com/en/turntables/f300/ It isn't a necessity, but if you tap on the plinth, you're less likely to hear it through your speakers.

It IS a bloody lower-caste Dual and this basic auto machine appears in many forms these days. Not sure if the counterweight allows adjustment for alternative cartridges, but at least the AT91 at 2g sounds a lot clearer than the rather-soft-toned 3600L 3g tracker (in my experience they're patently NOT the same as some have indicated!!!) A decent elliptical stylus can be got for the AT91 body (Dual DN251E/Thakker EPO E) but watch where it comes from as some cheap ones may not be good at all.

Careful siting of ALL basic solid-type turntables is VITAL for best reproduction and this applies to the Technics decks as well/ Lids off when playing is recommended as raised, they all act as sound-boards. Back when vinyl really mattered as a main source, the early to mid 1980s HiFi Choice books (all on worldradiohistory) turntable issues have extensive introductions as to how to site and use a turntable - it's still important...

 

[lini]

(...) Is there any direct drive with a non-conventional shape that will not require to sell your soul to buy?

Maybe you could find a Mikro Seiki DQX 500 for a decent price. Or you could consider nudifying one of the big Kenwoods (like for example the KD-990).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[DVDdoug]

Robin L's photo the Dual looks like it has a flip-over stylus. That would indicate a ceramic cartridge. A "'modern" magnetic cartridge will give you much better sound, but perhaps not the "vintage sound" you're looking for. Ceramic cartridges have higher output (into a very-high impedance) and frequency response that roughly approximates RIAA EQ so they don't need a phono preamp. Tubes are "naturally" high-impedance so it was easy to have a compatible input in the tube days. (The ceramic cartridge won't work with anything "modern".)

I found this about ceramic cartridges:

Ceramic cartridges​

Rather than using electromagnetism to translate kinetic energy to electrical energy, the ceramic cartridge uses the piezoelectric effect. A ceramic cartridge’s needle directly exerts its kinetic energy on two samples of piezoelectric material, which produce voltages proportional to the pressure they experience.

Fun a design as this is, it has a handful of shortfalls. Cheaper ceramic cartridges need to weigh heavily on a record to reproduce it properly, leading to quicker wear. These designs also suffer from a reduced bass response, which results in thin-sounding audio.

Cheaper suitcase-style record players are notorious for their use of inexpensive ceramic cartridges, which exact a heavy toll on the records they play (and for less-than worthwhile results). Better-designed ceramics have their strengths, though, for instance in the playing of old-school 78s.

 

[Nippithon]

Why would you not recommend buying a turntable with an integrated phono amplifier? If it can't be switched off, I can understand that a lot of flexibility is lost, but I actually found it practical to start with a switchable one.

Twice in your original post you used the phrase "optimum sound." Now you're saying "practical." That's fine, but it's a different goal.

I don't trust that those built-in phono pre-amps are completely, transparently bypassed when switched "off." Even if I'm wrong about that, when switched on it will degrade the sound (compared to a decent external) and, when switched off, it will exhaust some of your budget. Amir recently reviewed two budget phono preamps by Fosi that measured near state of the art sinad. One is $80, the other, $109.