Build a system, don’t just buy equipment

[SHB]

Not surprisingly, a website that tests audio equipment is big on the equipment aspect of audio, but it’s surprisingly sparse on the subject creating a complete system/room design.

This isn’t surprising since most people don’t have the square footage for a dedicated listening/media room. Hey, I get that as well as that even fewer folks are going to throw down more than $2k for a system.

Regardless, there seems to be a decent number of these people coming through. To those folks, let me offer some advice:

• If you’re really interested in getting the most out of your equipment and your listening experience, take the time, expand your knowledge and build a system. It will take time and effort, but if you want the best possible audio in your space, you can’t get it without putting in the work.

• Don’t believe in magic. If some douche bag is talking nonsense about equipment and not offering any measurements to back it up, keep walking. Human hearing, the Blu-ray disc and digital audio aren’t measurably perfect, but human hearing is much less reliable than testing equipment and surpassed by digital media. Subjective audio reviews are of very limited value.

• I really like having the best quality peripheral equipment when it comes to cables, power protection and furniture, but best quality doesn’t mean anything close to highest priced. Mogami Cables, Blue Jeans Cables, Furman Power, Monoprice and Boltz Furniture make great stuff and none of it will bust your budget.

• While the electronics make a difference, the audible difference between well-built & designed amps, pres and DACs is audibly very small to indistinguishable. The best amps and DACs tested in ASR cost less than $1k. Even if you’re buying an AV receiver, the best built of the type still offer really good performance for $800 or so.

• The best ROI in loudspeakers are Sub/Sat systems and that is even more so with stereo Sub/Sat. Actually, the more subs, the better. Too many reasons to list… look it up.

Your room and how it’s designed is as important as the speakers and, possibly, more so. Here’s the biggest mistakes people make:

• Having the listening position against the back wall… Honestly… Really… You haven’t figured that one out? Your listening position can’t be up against any wall. That places you in a pressure zone… not the place to be. You have to be at least two feet from the back wall and, in that case, the wall needs a decent amount of absorption. If you’re 4 feet away or more from the back wall, you’ll want a good bit of reflective dispersion… that will give you something akin to a LEDE room (live end/dead end).

• Your walls, floor and ceiling need to be treated. Every major reflection needs to be reduced.

• Finally, it shouldn’t need to be explained, but any hard, reflective surface between you and the speakers needs to be eliminated. That big coffee table? It’s got to go.

This is how you create an audio system in a supportive listening environment that will give you the best outcome.

If all you want is music in your living room, this ain’t it.

 

[DWPress]

• Your walls, floor and ceiling need to be treated. Every major reflection needs to be reduced.

• Finally, it shouldn’t need to be explained, but any hard, reflective surface between you and the speakers needs to be eliminated. That big coffee table? It’s got to go.

Only if you're looking for absolute controlled directivity to a sweet spot. Some of us prefer a more expansive system/room where controlled diffusion is preferred. Treatment, within reason, sure - but consider your listening habits and room first and take plenty of measurements.

 

[SHB]

Let me respectfully disagree.

Any reflection will impact your ability to hear the actual studio mix. Having implemented LEDE in a few rooms, the stereo imaging with accurate speakers is fantastic and the diffuse reflections from the rear of the room give you some great ambiance that is almost as immersive as true surround sound.

Also, a LEDE room eliminates many of the frequencies below 1kHz which is the area where most speakers become omnidirectional. It cleans up that slop coming from behind the speakers.

If you have cardioid speakers it’s less of an issue, but having accurate cardioid speakers in a LEDE room will go even further towards creating an expansive front stereo image.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Your walls, floor and ceiling need to be treated. Every major reflection needs to be reduced.

This is impractical in a vast majority of cases.

 

[john61ct]

Seems like your topic is not well reflected in the title. The title idea as written very much still applies to the listening space in my kitchen + dining + living room opening onto entrance hallway, also the deck & patio.


Maybe:

"Designing a dedicated listening room"

or "Your room treatments are part of your audio system, just as important as the other gear you buy"

Are apparently more like what you want to proselytise?

 

[Talisman]

There are actually a myriad of threads
about room acoustic treatment. Unlike a DAC review, acoustic treatment isn't universally applicable, and the same advice might work well in one room and poorly in another. Measurements, evaluations, placement decisions, and countless other factors need to be considered.
Furthermore, your suggestions, rather than suggestions for adapting a standard living room, call for installing a proper listening room in the home. This is something 90% of users can't do, and 100% of wives wouldn't accept in a standard living room. This is why most of us have to compromise on room acoustic treatment or listening position.

 

[SHB]

This is impractical in a vast majority of cases.

Actually, using sound-absorbing blankets and heavy curtains in front of them (to dress them up) is incredibly effective as well as being very cost effective. Hanging a few GIK Acoustics drop ceiling panels strategically hits that problem.

Total cost is well under $1k to hit about 75% of a 12x18 dead end of the room. It’s prettier & cheaper than acoustic foam and I think more effective at low frequencies.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Total cost is well under $1k

Cost is not the issue. Room aesthetics is the issue. ie housemates.

 

[john61ct]

And my "dead end" is a busy kitchen with the dining area smack dab in the middle. I am the "sole ruler" but choose to be reasonable with the kidz...

 

[SHB]

There are actually a myriad of threads
about room acoustic treatment. Unlike a DAC review, acoustic treatment isn't universally applicable, and the same advice might work well in one room and poorly in another. Measurements, evaluations, placement decisions, and countless other factors need to be considered.
Furthermore, your suggestions, rather than suggestions for adapting a standard living room, call for installing a proper listening room in the home. This is something 90% of users can't do, and 100% of wives wouldn't accept in a standard living room. This is why most of us have to compromise on room acoustic treatment or listening position.

I get it. Most people can’t do it. Have a stereo in your living room. I did that for a long time and it’s nice, but once I could record (under limited circumstances) and mix my own music at home with results that were as good as almost any studio in the world, my view changed.

I have tried several designs for a LEDE room design and found that you can make a very effective solution so long as you give up about 4 inches of space on each wall.

The great thing about using heavy curtains in front of the blankets is that they are also incredibly sound absorptive.

I’ve always rented and never owned a home. I’ve found a way to cheaply effect a LEDE room in these residences.

Hey, you want images on the wall? Hang them from the ceiling with monofilament line in front of the curtains. It looks really cool.

Again, nothing wrong with just having a stereo in your living room. I’ve done that most of my life. I’ve found something better.

Not saying everyone can do it.

 

[SHB]

Wow, OK, you want to have speakers in your acoustically untreated living rooms. Live it up. No one’s stopping you.

If going the extra step to cheaply acoustically treat your listening room is not something you’re willing to do, that’s up to you.

Room acoustics is the final step in audio system design when you’re building a place to listen to recorded music. How far you want to go with it is up to you.

Again, if you want a stereo in your living room, go for it. I had that a good bit of my life.

I’ve gone through a few iterations of rooms that are quite superior to that and discovered how to create an effective LEDE room design that’s quite aesthetically pleasing.

If going to the last step in the journey (room acoustics) is a bridge too far for you, well, fine. No sweat off my brow.

Room acoustics are only about 50% of the sound you experience.

This is not snake oil. This is real. Maybe hit up Dr. Floyd Toole in ASR about this.

One last time: there’s nothing wrong with just having a stereo system in your living room.

That’s not a proper listening room, but if that’s the best you can do, fine. Enjoy what you have.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

this is going great

 

[SHB]

this is going great

Stupid me

 

[john61ct]

No one is disagreeing with the importance of the room as part of the overall system,

nor the validity of well treated dedicated rooms.

Just the approach you took in presenting the ideas as if this were realistic and practical for most people.

Where I live, the incremental capital investment would be well over $150K

 

[flightops]

I think it's more a matter of "work with what you have" rather than "the ideal" for room treatments where most people are concerned.

I'm all analog gear, so no DSP, parametric eq, etc.

My "dedicated audio room" was my home office before I retired. It was great as a small home office, but the same properties make it less than ideal as an audio room:

(not to scale, it's far more "tighter" than the diagram looks)

It's small and asymmetrical, large windows and not much choice other than to sit in a 50/51Hz "null" point.

I used REW and an EM-01 to get it as good as I could with positioning. The imaging is fantastic. Delicate, nuanced and extremely detailed...and it even sounds pretty good to me as it currently sits, even with a measured 130hz SBIR issue and a 50/51Hz null. The 130hz is pretty deep, but it's a smooth transition in and out of it and the 50/51Hz null has a smooth entry and a rapid/strong recovery at 52-55Hz. The SBIR goes away with the tower speakers within 3" of hte rear wall, but that introduces too many other issues that just can't be dealt with (imagin, soundstage, etc).

The rest I'm planning to deal with by some absorption and a second sub to try and excite that 50hz null a bit more.

As I still have to enjoy living in the space, I want it to look decent and not feel closed in. That means no heavy curtains on the windows, so I have to live with that.

The SBIR I can't really make "go away", but I can smooth it out a little bit. That will be bass traps sized to the room limitations:

and the ceiling will get a cloud treatment, trying to keep with the style of the room as well as look "aesthetically pleasing":

that cloud covers pretty much all of the ceiling reflection areas.

The current 8" sub is located near field to the listening position (26 inches from rear wall), which was the best compromise in the room for the physics of it. A second sub will be in the 12" cone range and located off axis to try and excite that 50-51Hz null a bit more and add a little extra "depth" to the bass. Final location of the subs will be REW measurement driven and of course, the limitation of the rooms available spaces.

At that point, I'll have to be satisfied with what results I get because there's only so much you can do in a small, compromised room that you're only willing to make so many tradeoffs for SQ. As mentioned, I have to enjoy being in the space as much as listening to it.

Obviously, my space is just for listening, not mixing/recording.

So I'm back to me earlier statement: "You work with what you've got"...

 

[PristineSound]

Seems like your topic is not well reflected in the title. The title idea as written very much still applies to the listening space in my kitchen + dining + living room opening onto entrance hallway, also the deck & patio.


Maybe:

"Designing a dedicated listening room"

or "Your room treatments are part of your audio system, just as important as the other gear you buy"

Are apparently more like what you want to proselytise?

Yeah, when I saw the title, I thought I was about to click on a thread where some audio jester is preaching about component synergy.

Turns out this is just another room treatment thread.

 

[PristineSound]

I have one room that is minimally treated, which is more than what my wife already accepts. And more than what I am willing to drills holes to install.

Asking people to treat the ceiling of a common living area is like asking someone to drive a Ferrari through the Baja California desert. Not happening even if the driver was Jesus himself.

I don't believe it's a good idea to bring up power conditioners without caveating a presence of power issues on the main. Not to mention, the over whelming vast majority of Furman power conditioners does absolutely nothing even if you have real main line issues.

 

[DVDdoug]

Your walls, floor and ceiling need to be treated. Every major reflection needs to be reduced.

Although that's a requirement for reproducing the original sound, most people don't like the sound of a "dead room".

I've had my speakers in "dance hall" a couple of times and they sound a lot better (to me) with the natural large-room reverb than in my "average" living room with no special treatment. I don't "hear" any reflections but of course there are some that are certainly affecting the sound. There is a large decorative blanket hanging on one wall, but it was hung as decoration and I think I hung it when I moved-in so I don't know how it affects the sound.

 

[PristineSound]

There actually are suggestions that humans are not sensitive to floor sound reflections. Floyd mention this in his book.

 

[DMill]

I think we need to take a step back if we are discussing room treatments. Where are you really critically listening to music? I have a hot tub. My Sonos Roam is probably just fine against the sound of water jets for an outdoor setting. I have a kitchen where we actually talk to each other. So maybe not there? I do have a living room where I watch movies. But room treatments in my living space? I don’t live in a dorm. But sure, if you have a listening space, great on you. Hang ugly baffles everywhere.