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Budget DAC Review: behringer UMC204HD

Ecnob

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Sorry, I'm still a little confused here. So, to be clear, is there any specific advantage of using an amp with balanced inputs over an amp with unbalanced inputs?
 

andreasmaaan

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Sorry, I'm still a little confused here. So, to be clear, is there any specific advantage of using an amp with balanced inputs over an amp with unbalanced inputs?

It depends on the context.

The primary advantage of balanced inputs is that any noise picked up by the cable is cancelled out. This makes the use of balanced cables essential for situations in which there are long distances between components, and particularly where the environment is electrically noisy. This is why balanced systems are always used in studios and for PA.

For home use, cable runs are usually short and electrical interference levels tend to be low, so there is often no need for balanced components.

There are some other potential advantages of using differential balanced components (sometime referred to by the misnomer "true balanced"), but these are likely to be fairly negligible in comparison to other design factors:
  • 6dB extra headroom
  • for internally differential balanced components, potentially better overall performance, plus additional headroom (but at significant extra cost)
To summarise, if you're selecting an amplifier for use at home there is no need to use balanced components. And if value for money is a factor, you're probably more likely to find an unbalanced amp that performs better.

If you're asking about how best to set up your existing components, it depends on the specific components. What are they?
 

Ecnob

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As of right now I'm using just the UMC204HD and I'm planning on pairing it with a headphone amp. I may use it with monitors in the future, but that's pretty unlikely.

Since it seems like the UMC204HD has low output, I'm concerned that if I couple it with another amp in this price range (most likely the O2, which was given a favorable review, which also has a lower output compared to other units according to amirm. The o2 doesn't have balanced inputs I believe.

That's why Jinjuku's statement confused me, because they seem to be saying that an amp with balanced inputs bypasses the low output issue, but I don't understand why because as I thought the difference is mostly with noise, and not really with output level.
 

Jinjuku

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As of right now I'm using just the UMC204HD and I'm planning on pairing it with a headphone amp. I may use it with monitors in the future, but that's pretty unlikely.

Since it seems like the UMC204HD has low output, I'm concerned that if I couple it with another amp in this price range (most likely the O2, which was given a favorable review, which also has a lower output compared to other units according to amirm. The o2 doesn't have balanced inputs I believe.

That's why Jinjuku's statement confused me, because they seem to be saying that an amp with balanced inputs bypasses the low output issue, but I don't understand why because as I thought the difference is mostly with noise, and not really with output level.


It's been stated quite clearly: If you have an amp with a gain stage that can be adjusted and allows the amp to be driven to full volume by +3dBu the Behringer won't represent a compromised solution.

Balanced connectivity simply means CMNR (common mode noise rejection) and is superior to single ended designs in that regard.
 

andreasmaaan

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As of right now I'm using just the UMC204HD and I'm planning on pairing it with a headphone amp. I may use it with monitors in the future, but that's pretty unlikely.

Since it seems like the UMC204HD has low output, I'm concerned that if I couple it with another amp in this price range (most likely the O2, which was given a favorable review, which also has a lower output compared to other units according to amirm. The o2 doesn't have balanced inputs I believe.

That's why Jinjuku's statement confused me, because they seem to be saying that an amp with balanced inputs bypasses the low output issue, but I don't understand why because as I thought the difference is mostly with noise, and not really with output level.

I see the confusion. AFAIK, the UMC204HD is not differential balanced, which means that the balanced outputs will not provide an advantage in terms of higher output voltage. There seems to be a very slight advantage in terms of SNR, but I'd call this negligible.

According to the JDS Labs website, the O2 amp is capable of pretty decent output and has user-selectable gain settings (scroll down to Tech Specs). If the UMC204HD can output 0.775V via the RCA outs (which I believe is the case), then with the 6.5x gain setting selected on the O2, you should be capable of driving the O2 to about full output.

So I don't think you'd have a problem using these two in combination with most headphones. Which headphones will you be using though?
 
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Ecnob

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I currently use the Sennheiser HD 558 which are driven fine by the UMC204HD, but I'd probably be upgrading either to the HD 600 or more likely the AKG K612/AKG K712 PRO as I think it's a more meaningful upgrade for my use case. I'm a heavy music listener/gamer so it seems like a good bet. I imagine on the O2 with the 6.5x gain stage I'd be having no issues whatsoever with all but the most power hungry of headphones.
 

andreasmaaan

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I currently use the Sennheiser HD 558 which are driven fine by the UMC204HD, but I'd probably be upgrading either to the HD 600 or more likely the AKG K612/AKG K712 PRO as I think it's a more meaningful upgrade for my use case. I'm a heavy music listener/gamer so it seems like a good bet. I imagine on the O2 with the 6.5x gain stage I'd be having no issues whatsoever with all but the most power hungry of headphones.

Yeh exactly, you’ll be fine with any of those.
 

Ecnob

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Is there any chance of this review being updated to the current testing standards? I'd be interested to see how this DAC compares in the other tested categories, such as linearity. It would make it easier to compare to the other newer products.

I did find in this thread some more measurements of the UMC404HD, and I'm wondering if the 204HD matches up.
 

MatteoS

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Hello

I would like to swap OPamp AD8694 in UMC204hd, placed close outputs, with the OPA4322AIPWR.

The OPA op amp has stronger current output Isc=65mA instead of 20mA from AD installed.

The motivation is to reduce the distortion when driving headphone.

What do you think ?

Best regards and any help will be very appreciated.
 

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trl

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Hello,

Headphones-out is just for monitoring purposes, right? If so, then not sure it worth the trouble; for critical listening you could use an external headamp.

However, AD8694 seems to be a little bit less noisy, but OPA4322 is a having indeed more current output.

Personally I would vote for an external headamp, but let's wait for others what have to say.
 

MatteoS

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Hello

I wish to maintain the DAC portable to be easy to carry out home and preserve all DAC audio quality in balanced outputs
while losing only a bit of performances on headphone jack is acceptable.

I found new alternatives:

AD8618 ARUZ 100mA current output, precision audio op-amp ( best candidate ? )

AD8534 ARUZ 250mA current output, op amp (headphone drivers)

I would like to have the schematic of UMC204hd...

thanks !
 

EngineerNate

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Hi all,

I bought this interface with the intention of using it to do ADC->DAC duties for a linux based DSP on the cheap. I'm disappointed to hear about the input sound quality issues. I'm wondering though, I've read that the inserts on the back for an effects loop bypasses the internal preamp circuitry and goes straight to ADC. Is there any chance that that way of connecting the input signal would result in better sound quality?
 

trl

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MatteoS, you're probably referring to distortions from here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...04hd-dac-and-headphone-amplifier-review.2013/, right? However, let's not forget this is an USB-powered DAC/headamp, so power-hungry headphones are not recommended.

Hope you'll find and post here the internal schematic. Also, if you do swap the output buffer, please post here RMAA, ARTA or similar tests with before vs. after.
 

Fernand

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First time poster. The UMC204 and 404 are not "DACs", they are interfaces for DAWs used in audio production. Today's "chips" are excellent, Behringer uses the same chips as everyone else, so many studio people happily pay 1/2 or less of what more famous brands charge, and are willing to put up with the lack of documentation and support. Schematics, LOL? And it costs a small fraction of what the alleged "audiophile" units with lovely enclosures cost.

But they have to curtail costs somehow. The output level e.g. is limited by the 5 volt supply. Their $250 FCA1616 uses a 12 volt supply and converts voltages internally, provides true balanced outputs and many other advantages, like either Firewire or USB, and multiple digital I/Os. My FCA1616 just lost its power supply circuits after being on 24x7 for over 5 years. Like most modern gear with surface mounted components, it cannot be repaired without specialized equipment, but it was a bargain overall.

I had a UMC204HD as a backup unit, so I've been evaluating the UMC404HD for more I/O. I'm finding it's got the same unbalanced outs and -10dB output limits. I thought perhaps the Phones out (that drives AKG 701s just fine) could be used as a +4 output, that's an old studio trick. No dice. As you can see here, at 1 volt per division, the +/- 2.5 volts rails are where the signal clips. There's also a very high frequency hash on the signal.

phones_20181031_154845-1.jpg


On the main output the rails are even more limited, more like +/- 1.5 volts. But no hash.

mains_20181031_160520-1.jpg


This level limit doesn't matter if you use it at standard -10 dBv home equipment levels. Powered speakers and amplifiers normally accept a -10 dB signal, and with careful grounding cable runs of 25ft or more are OK.

As long as you don't try to defy the limitations of the design, it's a very decent and inexpensive solution. I don't hear the hash on the headphone jack, though it's ugly on the scope. I'll have to check if it's the same on the UMC204HD that I'm keeping as a backup.
 

Jinjuku

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First time poster. The UMC204 and 404 are not "DACs", they are interfaces for DAWs used in audio production. Today's "chips" are excellent, Behringer uses the same chips as everyone else, so many studio people happily pay 1/2 or less of what more famous brands charge, and are willing to put up with the lack of documentation and support. Schematics, LOL? And it costs a small fraction of what the alleged "audiophile" units with lovely enclosures cost.

But they have to curtail costs somehow. The output level e.g. is limited by the 5 volt supply. Their $250 FCA1616 uses a 12 volt supply and converts voltages internally, provides true balanced outputs and many other advantages, like either Firewire or USB, and multiple digital I/Os. My FCA1616 just lost its power supply circuits after being on 24x7 for over 5 years. Like most modern gear with surface mounted components, it cannot be repaired without specialized equipment, but it was a bargain overall.

I had a UMC204HD as a backup unit, so I've been evaluating the UMC404HD for more I/O. I'm finding it's got the same unbalanced outs and -10dB output limits. I thought perhaps the Phones out (that drives AKG 701s just fine) could be used as a +4 output, that's an old studio trick. No dice. As you can see here, at 1 volt per division, the +/- 2.5 volts rails are where the signal clips. There's also a very high frequency hash on the signal.

View attachment 17161

On the main output the rails are even more limited, more like +/- 1.5 volts. But no hash.

View attachment 17162

This level limit doesn't matter if you use it at standard -10 dBv home equipment levels. Powered speakers and amplifiers normally accept a -10 dB signal, and with careful grounding cable runs of 25ft or more are OK.

As long as you don't try to defy the limitations of the design, it's a very decent and inexpensive solution. I don't hear the hash on the headphone jack, though it's ugly on the scope. I'll have to check if it's the same on the UMC204HD that I'm keeping as a backup.

Thanks for the quick review and scope's. Agree 100% with your assessment: if you design your setup with a down stream amp that can reach full output with the input from the 204HD you have a bargain, hi-fidelity, of a setup if you are on limited funds. For a few $$ more the Topping D30 / 50 would be the go to so far.

Spending another $200-250 more will get you something, that measurement wise, competes with any DAC out there at any price point.
 

Fernand

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I'm very grateful to see threads like this that contribute to liberation. Liberation from BS. Liberation from a cruel game of snob-appeal that makes so many of us with limited funds keep chasing our tails on meaningless upgrades. Liberation from feeling down and deprived if we can't afford the shiniest gizmos, that in (demonstrable) reality are no better.

We now have access to remarkable technology at very low cost. We have unprecedented access to centuries of beautiful music, and we can hear it better than ever before. Share and rejoice!
 

Fernand

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FWIW I found a replacement for my dead Behringer FCA1616, a Firewire interface from Presonus with 8 good mic preamps and balanced I/O with ample headroom for professional "+4" studio gear.

Firewire gives shorter latencies than USB, so I'm happy. These particular FireStudio Project units have contemporary 64 bit drivers and can be found second hand around $150 as they are discontinued and Firewire is considered obsolescent. The specs are available here
https://www.presonus.com/products/FireStudio-Project/tech-specs

Getting this class of interface, that once cost much more, second hand, offers a great cost/performance approach if you know what to look for. There's a lot of serious audio gear that's not targeting the "audiophile" market, but rather people who work with audio for a living. Better equipment, better prices, no flattering enclosures.
 
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