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Budget DAC Review: behringer UMC204HD

AnalogSteph

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So needless to say I was surprised that Amirm's test were OK...
How exactly did you wire up the UMC204's output? I would be rather surprised if the thing wasn't at least impedance-balanced, it takes all but two passive components per channel for a decent approximation and has been a common sight on Behringer gear forever.

Seeing all that noise, I rather suspect there's a ground loop going on in your setup. Seeing that you've got transformers, I'd try treating the outputs as balanced , run out+ and out- into the xfmr and do a ground lift for the shield somewhere.
 

ajawamnet

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How exactly did you wire up the UMC204's output? I would be rather surprised if the thing wasn't at least impedance-balanced, it takes all but two passive components per channel for a decent approximation and has been a common sight on Behringer gear forever.

Seeing all that noise, I rather suspect there's a ground loop going on in your setup. Seeing that you've got transformers, I'd try treating the outputs as balanced , run out+ and out- into the xfmr and do a ground lift for the shield somewhere.

Naw - not a ground loop at 99kHz, 511kHz and 900kHz.... see the SA3032 RF spectrum plot of the noise:

UMC204HD-sa3032.jpg

and the QA401 running at full bandwidth (95kHz)
uh204.jpg



- that's some sort of switching or A2D crap. That's hi freq crap from some silly they go going on in there. Other interfaces I use on that bench like this Presonus:


... and my MOTU 2408 MKIII don't exhibit that kinda noise at 99/511/900 kHz. And they have more stuff hooked up to the same bench equipment.

Even standalone and just connected to a scope (with or without a PC connected) it's still there just as bad.... Even using a diff probe it's still there (even tho as I mentioned it's not really a balanced output... )

Not a ground loop. Just an $80 ADC/DAC... ya get what you pay for. As Amirm shows it's great in the audio band.

BTW - that audio on the Presonus vid is my crappy phone - all nice and phasey - tho I am running some nasty signals thru the gear.. Lovely...

I will say the Presonus and the mod Behringer 8ch mic pre (ADAT into the 1824) is quiet as hell - even with 16 channels in source mode. Really nice.
 
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BeerBear

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Does anyone know what the output impedance is for the headphone output of the UMC204HD?

Same question for the two NI Komplete Audio interfaces above. I can't find this info anywhere.
 
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pozz

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Does anyone know what the output impedance is for the headphone output of the UMC204HD?

Same question for the two NI Komplete Audio interfaces above. I can't find this info anywhere.
Though output impedance figures aren't provided, Amir's conclusion is that the headphone output is too low-power to be adequate here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...04hd-dac-and-headphone-amplifier-review.2013/

Check out the full review database here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/. A separate database/interface where you can compare basic measurements from each unit is coming.
 

solderdude

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Though output impedance figures aren't provided, Amir's conclusion is that the headphone output is too low-power to be adequate here:

I fully agree.. do not use the HP out. The volpot cannot be used above 1 'o clock setting anyway. I guess I could measure the output R but there is no point in doing so.
 

BeerBear

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I saw that test, but I mostly use 40 Ohm headphones that are sensitive/loud, so I'd probably never go past half volume.
But I'd like to have a low impedance output, to get an accurate frequency response.
 

solderdude

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That would not only depend on the impedance but on the actual headphone used.
There are quite a few that aren't bothered by a higher output R.
When you mention the headphone(s) I can see if you need to worry or not.
 

BeerBear

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Sony MDR-CD380 (40 Ohm, though I've also seen 24 Ohm listed somewhere) are my mains, but also Eartools RP-21 (32 Ohm).

edit: but I'd like it to work well with other headphones too, at least those that don't have a high power requirement
 
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Get a hearing test

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Thinking of getting ktb. Is there any reason over this one i have? Like newer components vs this one packing a decade old stuff. Differences in dacs.
 

solderdude

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Does anyone know what the output impedance is for the headphone output of the UMC204HD?

Just measured the output R of the headphone out of the UMC204HD (@ 440Hz, 1V) = 21 Ohm
 

seiskid

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This thing generates VAST AMOUNTS OF HIGH FREQUENCY NOISE.

Other posts on this same problem;
(fernard p15) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...et-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/page-15
(myself p19) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...et-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/page-19
(ajawamnet p21) https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...et-dac-review-behringer-umc204hd.1658/page-21

I did some more testing today
- the noise is ultrasonic (above 20khz)
- the noise is equivalent but DIFFERENT left and right. Same amplitude and character - but non identical signals - This implies that it's generated in the dac and is NOT power supply related.
- the noise is generated on ALL output connections
- the noise is generated whenever the thing is powered up. It doesn't have to be connected to a laptop for example.
- I ran the thing on a 5v lab power supply and it still generated the noise.
- I scoped the 48v phantom power output and its relatively quiet and i doubt this circuit has anything to do with this.

Anyone know what the dac chip is for this thing and if that's the cause.

My 20 year old crappy soundblaster usb in comparison is DEAD QUIET on the scope.
Might be an interesting feature in future reviews to measure ultra-sonic noise.

Scope_2.jpg
Scope_3.jpg
 

solderdude

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seiskid

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Thanks solder dude - I hadn't noticed that page. Yep that's the noise in those spectrum plots
Though in my unit its around -20db or so!!!
Based on my scope (I don't have a spectrum analyser) its broadband hash 50k-200k would be my guess.
I agree the photo above 'looks' common mode but it's not. The unit is generating that noise internally :(
 

graaaaaaavy

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This might be of interest (wild speculation on my part but just happened to be reading this yesterday sounded familiar)

From Sound on Sound review of Echo Audiofire 12 interface

"It happened at every sample rate, and I eventually managed to track down the problem to the Audiofire's most unusual noise performance. Rather than the roughly flat noise spectrum one would expect, the Audiofire's output noise level starts to rise from about 25kHz, and when it got to the highest frequency I could measure (96kHz — half of the 192kHz sample rate) it had risen by a huge 70dB! When you choose the 176kHz or 192kHz sample rates, the Console utility input meters also display a continuous low-level input signal, and once I'd recorded some of this it turned out to be similar ultrasonic background noise.
A swift email exchange with Echo's boffins confirmed that this noise isn't a fault at all, but a by-product of the rather unusual Cirrus Logic converters used in the Audiofire range, as well as in the 3G and Indigo IO. These particular converters use IIR (Infinite Impulse Response) filters instead of the more usual FIR (Finite Impulse Response) designs adopted by most competitors like AKM. Much research has been carried out to determine why many people hear an improvement in digital audio quality at 96kHz and higher sample rates compared with 44.1kHz, and many experts now seem to agree that it's not the extended frequency response that provides the audible improvements, but the gentler high-end filtering, resulting in better impulse response with less 'time smear' and cleaner transients.
IIR filtering is more efficient, providing lower converter latency, and it also has a better impulse response, which according to the argument above should transfer some of the benefits of higher sample rates (better stereo imaging and improvements in playback of instruments with lots of transients, such as percussion) even to 44.1kHz recording/playback. The only disadvantage is this ultrasonic noise, if this is a disadvantage — you can't hear it, and the A-weighting filters used in dynamic range measurements automatically exclude it as well. I wouldn't have even known it was there except that my analogue mixer has a wide bandwidth with a -3dB point above 125kHz, while the Echo Console has no filtering at all, which is the only reason that it showed up on the meters. On other gear you might not even be aware of its existence."

Hope it helps :)..
 

A800

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Don't use the U-Phoria for playback.
Albeit the highs were more pleasing it has an awful muddy and compressed sound compared to even a cheap notebook onboard soundchip.
 

A800

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Mine sounds sometimes Steely and other times Muddy depending on Dan and Waters :)
LOL!
Lucky you.
Mine sounded muddy al the time.
 

Willem

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I need a fairly basic ADC with usb output and XLR microphone input for a Sennheiser MKE600 used as a microphone for video conferencing and Skype calls. The primary function of the mic is as a video camera microphone, but I decided it might just as well do dual duty in these busy video conferencing times, and would almost certainly beat the microphone in any webcam (I quickly learned that audio is the really important part for Skype/Meet etc). I read some hesitation about the ADC in these Behringer interfaces (I would get the U-Phoria UM2), but would it matter for my purpose? Alternatively, would a Presonus Audiobox iOne be better, or perhaps the Komplete Audio 1 that was just mentioned (I like the styling). So to be clear, this is not for recording music or a similar high quality application.
 
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