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Buckeye Hypex Nc502mp Multichannel Amp Teardown

nyxnyxnyx

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Capacitor brand complaints incoming in 3, 2, 1....
Genuinely curious if there are supposed to be major differences in picking a top-class quality capacitor brand/model over more average options?
Like a long time ago I did read somewhere about the "fact" that 99,99% companies don't use matched capacitors so there are always deviations some aspects regarding to sound quality. The article also points out how some "summit-fi" products are expensive because they use perfectly matched components to finetune everything to the highest extent.
But of course, there was no real trend of debunking/proving the topic at that time, and I lack expertise in this subject so I can't draw a conclusion by my own.
 

Shanman

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Thanks for the clarification Dillon. Are they powdercoated aluminum or anodized then?
 

respice finem

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...BTW, I am always surprised by the amount of goop hypex puts on their amps. They are good to keep vibrations down and keep failure during shipping low. But I must confess I had not seen them put on transformer in that manner. I wonder if it is there to keep transformer whining down as a post measure. The goop makes repair more of a pain by the way as you can't just desolder and pull the part out...
Perhaps other modern adhesives will end the current "silicone age". Elastic adhesives that can be applied easily, but also easily removed by simply pulling them, exist for many years. Another alternative could be elastomere "cushions" under the caps. I think it is, yet again, a question of cost.
 

JayGilb

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Genuinely curious if there are supposed to be major differences in picking a top-class quality capacitor brand/model over more average options?
Like a long time ago I did read somewhere about the "fact" that 99,99% companies don't use matched capacitors so there are always deviations some aspects regarding to sound quality. The article also points out how some "summit-fi" products are expensive because they use perfectly matched components to finetune everything to the highest extent.
But of course, there was no real trend of debunking/proving the topic at that time, and I lack expertise in this subject so I can't draw a conclusion by my own.
Considering that -10%/+75% tolerance is common on a lot of aluminum electrolytic, I'm not sure it's worthwhile on audio reproducing electronics.
Measurement and test equipment for sure, but an amp that can be bias adjusted after assembly, not really.
 

DonH56

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Capacitor matching is not a concern for decoupling (power supply) caps and that is the subject here. The issues with them are longevity and reliability due to high-frequency switching pulses and high-temperature operation. Better caps can handle greater and higher-frequency ripple with less internal heat that reduces lifetime. Among other things...
 

PeteL

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Genuinely curious if there are supposed to be major differences in picking a top-class quality capacitor brand/model over more average options?
Like a long time ago I did read somewhere about the "fact" that 99,99% companies don't use matched capacitors so there are always deviations some aspects regarding to sound quality. The article also points out how some "summit-fi" products are expensive because they use perfectly matched components to finetune everything to the highest extent.
But of course, there was no real trend of debunking/proving the topic at that time, and I lack expertise in this subject so I can't draw a conclusion by my own.
Well capacitor match their specs within a tolerance, the designer choose Capacitor X based on either simulations or calculations that should take into account this tolerance when it comes to what they expect at the output, sometimes tight tolerance is needed, sometimes not, but really who measure and match? that doesn't make a lot of sense because we know what to expect, it's on the datasheet. Capacitor manufacturers do the "matching" for you. You pay more, you'll get tighter specs. Transistor matching, yes, but capacitor matching really?
 

GWolfman

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Always nice to see what's under the covers.
 

nyxnyxnyx

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Well capacitor match their specs within a tolerance, the designer choose Capacitor X based on either simulations or calculations that should take into account this tolerance when it comes to what they expect at the output, sometimes tight tolerance is needed, sometimes not, but really who measure and match? that doesn't make a lot of sense because we know what to expect, it's on the datasheet. Capacitor manufacturers do the "matching" for you. You pay more, you'll get tighter specs. Transistor matching, yes, but capacitor matching really?
Yeah I've heard that it's way more expensive to have matched components than just buy them in bucks. I don't know the clear benefits of having matched capacitors vs non-matched ones, maybe there's nothing advantageous except it brings buyers some peace of mind.

I got another question then: So let's say that this matching capacitor thingy doesn't matter at all, is there a benefit in replacing old capacitors with new ones (same brand/same model)? That's one of the more popular things related to capacitors that I've seen. There are speculative and subjective claims but I have never read an article or measurement about differences of before VS after replacing said capacitors.
 

JayGilb

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Yeah I've heard that it's way more expensive to have matched components than just buy them in bucks. I don't know the clear benefits of having matched capacitors vs non-matched ones, maybe there's nothing advantageous except it brings buyers some peace of mind.

I got another question then: So let's say that this matching capacitor thingy doesn't matter at all, is there a benefit in replacing old capacitors with new ones (same brand/same model)? That's one of the more popular things related to capacitors that I've seen. There are speculative and subjective claims but I have never read an article or measurement about differences of before VS after replacing said capacitors.
Electrolytic caps do change value after 10-15 years and I have noticed audible improvements (no objective measurement) after recapping some of my older amps and recording equipment. Sometimes it hard to get the same brand/model after a few decades due to companies going out of business.
One for sure, the size of caps have shrunk over the last 10 years due to formulation changes in the process.

I have also encountered cap hoarders who purchase large qualities of electrolytic caps from major distributors (Mouser, Digikey, etc) and then sell them on Ebay for jacked up prices.
 

DonH56

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The capacitor discussion should probably go elsewhere...

Matching values and other parameters when talking about coupling or signal filter capacitors, e.g. in the signal path, makes some sense when trying to get two or more channels to behave identically. Power supply decoupling ("filter") capacitors are usually common to both channels and even when not the circuit will (or should!) have decent power-supply rejection so it is insensitive to minor differences in values.

You have to be careful buying a bag of parts expecting to measure and match yourself. You can usually find some towards the end of the tolerance bands, but in the middle the well-matched (tight-tolerance) parts have probably already been selectively removed through manufacturing screens. If you buy a bag of 10%, 1 k-ohm resistors, expecting to match some to 1% at 1000 ohms, there may not be any in the bag. Why? The manufacturer already sorted and pulled all the 1% parts to sell as 1% parts. Ditto the 5% parts. So the 10% grab-bag probably contains a lot of resistors that are about 5% to 10% off the absolute value, e.g. you get a bunch of resistors ranging from 1050 to 1100 ohms and 900 to 950 ohms, but none in the 950 to 1050 ohm range that includes the 5% and 1% parts the manufacture has already screened and removed (to sell for more money due to their tighter tolerance, natch). What you can do is match a few to 1% relative to their value, so you may find a 915 ohm resistor you can match with a 920 ohm resistor that achieves 1% matching but is not within 1% of the 1000-ohm target value. That is good enough for some applications.
 

nyxnyxnyx

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The capacitor discussion should probably go elsewhere...

Matching values and other parameters when talking about coupling or signal filter capacitors, e.g. in the signal path, makes some sense when trying to get two or more channels to behave identically. Power supply decoupling ("filter") capacitors are usually common to both channels and even when not the circuit will (or should!) have decent power-supply rejection so it is insensitive to minor differences in values.

You have to be careful buying a bag of parts expecting to measure and match yourself. You can usually find some towards the end of the tolerance bands, but in the middle the well-matched (tight-tolerance) parts have probably already been selectively removed through manufacturing screens. If you buy a bag of 10%, 1 k-ohm resistors, expecting to match some to 1% at 1000 ohms, there may not be any in the bag. Why? The manufacturer already sorted and pulled all the 1% parts to sell as 1% parts. Ditto the 5% parts. So the 10% grab-bag probably contains a lot of resistors that are about 5% to 10% off the absolute value, e.g. you get a bunch of resistors ranging from 1050 to 1100 ohms and 900 to 950 ohms, but none in the 950 to 1050 ohm range that includes the 5% and 1% parts the manufacture has already screened and removed (to sell for more money due to their tighter tolerance, natch). What you can do is match a few to 1% relative to their value, so you may find a 915 ohm resistor you can match with a 920 ohm resistor that achieves 1% matching but is not within 1% of the 1000-ohm target value. That is good enough for some applications.
As @DonH56 suggested above. Please take this Capacitor conversation to a new thread. Thank you.
Understood. I don't mean to dilute the thread and wasn't sure if the question alone would be worth it to create a separate thread, but anyway the enthusiasm for it was great enough and I gained new insight.
 

tpeter

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damn i was just eying down a monolith 7 amp for the new onkyo reciever i preorderd... Now i see this amp!!! WTF do i do!!!
 

Jdunk54nl

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damn i was just eying down a monolith 7 amp for the new onkyo reciever i preorderd... Now i see this amp!!! WTF do i do!!!

I’d go this if you can wait. The monolith is 200w x7. You could even get an 8 channel 252mp for $1549.
 

tpeter

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I’d go this if you can wait. The monolith is 200w x7. You could even get an 8 channel 252mp for $1549.
Crap I just saw I wouldn't get until next year. I would need by end of next month, I don't want to use the new onkyo AVR to power my 4ohm speakers I play loud... Dammit, what about the buckeye 252 I think it is vs the monolith ?
 

Jdunk54nl

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Crap I just saw I wouldn't get until next year. I would need by end of next month, I don't want to use the new onkyo AVR to power my 4ohm speakers I play loud... Dammit, what about the buckeye 252 I think it is vs the monolith ?
Why are you worried about the onkyo powering the 4ohms? It would be fine until you get an amp. All buckeye amps, no matter the modules used have the same timeline.
 

tpeter

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Why are you worried about the onkyo powering the 4ohms? It would be fine until you get an amp. All buckeye amps, no matter the modules used have the same timeline.
I mean I can make the onkyo suffice, I just like playing at reference but there is no need for me to. Im new to these Buckeyes so I wasn't aware of the times on any of them.. appreciate you helping me out !
 

Matias

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