Buchardt I150 integrated Amp/DAC

[Mnyb]

Yes to sub output deep enough is not the problem spl and integration with room is . IMO their speakers almost go to deep for thier size , but low -3dB number sells speakers . In reality even if a small speaker can produce low bass , it's of almost no utility it's rarely ever geting loud enogh to even be heard . Better to optimize above some frequence to give you more SPL in midbass and use subwoofers if you need that 20-30 hz thrill .
What i mean by SPL is simply that the speaker does not need to be super loud , byt dynamic i think speakers sounds disjointed when the bass cr*ps out long before the mids and tweeters , I want the SPL capacity to be consistent in as wide frequency window as possible to acomodate the levels present in music . Hence a compromise for small speakers with sligthly higher -3dB point for bass would yeild a more usefull compromise imho, you loose output capacity really fast when trying to get low bass out of small drivers .

 

[CDMC]

The question was about this new amp of Buchardt missing a subwoofer out. Apart from that this would overcomplicate the design and Buchardts speakers are full range, I don’t see why a low level output would be a beneficial to high level. I used other subs low level in the past and always had timing issues with music. After going to Rel and using high level connections, the difference with using the LFE on the same receiver was night and day.

It sound like you never figured out how to properly integrate your subwoofer(s). The REL method of using the speaker level outputs does not allow for one of the main benefits of using subwoofers, relieving your main speakers of the deep bass duties and the distortion it creates. This holds true for small speakers, as well as large full range speakers. An additional note, many times the older REL's appeared to integrate better because they had very limited output. As such, people didn't set the sub level too high, a common issue that occurs when people introduce subwoofers.

 

[Chromatischism]

An option with the more powerful NC502MP (2x 500W at 4 ohms) would be awesome.

Seeing that their speakers are not rated to handle anywhere near 500 watts, I don't see the point in the added cost and potential liability.

 

[Matias]

Seeing that their speakers are not rated to handle anywhere near 500 watts, I don't see the point in the added cost and potential liability.

For their current speakers, that is true. But possibly for future speakers, and speakers of other brands as well.

 

[Kegemusha]

Just jumping in here, Isn't the model name I150?
Anyways, seems really nice to me, I have some S300 MKii and hey go down to 30Hz with my litte class AB amp, and in my listening room I dont need subs.
To me look a nice product, hypex Ncore inside and I guess it will sound even better after DSP managment.

"First the I150 is a serious integrated amplifier with room correction on its own. But where the I150 really set itself apart is when you pair it with one of our speakers. Not only is it tuned to be the best match with them, it also gives you the option to enable specific engineered optimizations to that exact Buchardt speaker you have. Something that is only possible when we know exactly how the whole chain behaves. "

 

[Eckelstone]

Just jumping in here, Isn't the model name I150?
Anyways, seems really nice to me, I have some S300 MKii and hey go down to 30Hz with my litte class AB amp, and in my listening room I dont need subs.
To me look a nice product, hypex Ncore inside and I guess it will sound even better after DSP managment.

Yes model name is I150 (150 / 300 watt 8/4 ohm). Buchardt just minutes ago launched the presale. It also has subwoofer out in the final design, so no issue any more. They listen well to their customers.

 

[Kegemusha]

Yes model name is I150 (150 / 300 watt 8/4 ohm). Buchardt just minutes ago launched the presale. It also has subwoofer out in the final design, so no issue any more. They listen well to their customers.

Yes I just got their email, and it seems they use the kind of Sonos truplay concept, where you go around the room with you apple device.

 

[Eckelstone]

Yes I tried it out with the A500s as well, the room core

Yes I just got their email, and it seems they use the kind of Sonos truplay concept, where you go around the room with you apple device.

Yes I tried it out with the A500s that I had on try out, it works really well and it is much more subtle than for example Dirac Live or Audyssey, which I both used in the past, which also makes sense because those systems do not know which speakers are attached, so need to work with more general data and correction assumptions. This is also why Sonos Trueplay only works on a Sonos amp if you attach their own speakers, same principle.

 

[jmusic]

How do you think it compares to other amplifiers of similar price point such as Technics SU-G700?
https://petertyson.co.uk/technics-su-g700-stereo-amplifier

 

[Matias]

@Mads Buchardt any chance to lend a unit for Amir to review? Thanks.

 

[Chromatischism]

How do you think it compares to other amplifiers of similar price point such as Technics SU-G700?
https://petertyson.co.uk/technics-su-g700-stereo-amplifier

Don't know much about that amp but the Buchardt amp is based on the Hypex NC252MP which is a known quantity.

 

[escape2]

If you are spending this amount of money on speakers and amplifier you would never use a preout for subwoofer, but high level input anyway. For example rel subwoofers.

You seem to be in the minority here, but I just wanted to chime in that my own experiences echo what you stated. Feeding my sub high level (speaker level) signal resulted in more articulate/musical bass, compared to feeding it line level signal. Granted, this is just one example and maybe my receiver just has a crappy line level sub out, but that is my experience. I wish more subwoofers would offer high level connections (would be nice if Rythmik L12 had them).

 

[Chromatischism]

The L series is the budget series - F-series has your speaker level inputs if you desire.

I will stick with bass managed subs via RCA as the benefits are too many to pass up.

So since the speaker-level inputs come at a significant premium, feeding an L12 RCA inputs via a bass managed system would be far more bang/buck. Really, those kinds of inputs are meant to allow sub integration into older, simpler systems that don't have bass management or LFE.

 

[escape2]

So since the line-level inputs come at a significant premium, feeding an L12 RCA inputs via a bass managed system would be far more bang/buck. Really, those kinds of inputs are meant to allow sub integration into older, simpler systems that don't have bass management or LFE.

Yeah, I don't have any bass management in my desktop/PC setup.

 

[escape2]

The L series is the budget series - F-series has your line level inputs if you desire.

They both have line level inputs (RCA). But the F-series also has speaker level inputs.

And this approach is actually backwards, IMO. It should be the budget series that should be equipped with speaker level inputs, allowing connectivity with budget amps/receivers that do not have line level outputs.

Most of my budget subs (Yamaha, Velodyne, BIC) have speaker level inputs in addition to RCA/line level.

 

[Chromatischism]

Sorry, I meant speaker level inputs.

 

[Chromatischism]

Yeah, I don't have any bass management in my desktop/PC setup.

Didn't know you were using a PC. I should use different terminology then because you can have bass management done in software. I was thinking of an AVR with the typical RCA preout.

 

[escape2]

Didn't know you were using a PC. I should use different terminology then because you can have bass management done in software. I was thinking of an AVR with the typical RCA preout.

No worries.

In a home theater/AVR setup, you definitely want to go the RCA/line level route for the reasons you stated.

But if you're not employing bass management, in a 2-channel audio only setup, speaker-level connections work just fine, in my experience, and to my ears actually sound better than RCA/line level connections, for reasons which I cannot explain.

 

[Eckelstone]

You seem to be in the minority here, but I just wanted to chime in that my own experiences echo what you stated. Feeding my sub high level (speaker level) signal resulted in more articulate/musical bass, compared to feeding it line level signal. Granted, this is just one example and maybe my receiver just has a crappy line level sub out, but that is my experience. I wish more subwoofers would offer high level connections (would be nice if Rythmik L12 had them).

Nice to see someone share actual experience instead of only voicing opinions based on 'science'. The latest Rel t5i and t7i are just little gems in this respect in my opinion. Apparently Emotiva S8 Flex is also a good more cost effective hi level option. I currently have a rel t5i paired with a pair of Harbeth P3ESR in my dekstop setup. I could not seriously see how someone could easily integrate a 12 inch sub with these size 'monitor' speakers. Integration is simply seemless and you don't notice the sub at all, until you put it off. The stories here claiming that it is only better to sent cut off frequencies to both Sub and speakers do not hold up if you use high quality components, that can easily filter those frequencies out. Maybe this applies to cheaper more budget priced gear, but if a speaker cannot handle low frequencies well it is just a bad speaker design (or bad speaker choice). It only over complicates stuff in the amp design in my opinion if you add a low level out. Your experience is by the way not an exception. Adding a Hi-level connection is expensive for manufacturing, because it needs/requires special processing and filtering and is more that just a 'connection'. The quality and speed of the processing that Rel is using is much better than the simple processors in a typical amp with dedicate Sub out, which typically uses a form of DSP etc.

By the way I am also considering two Rel Subs to use with the Buchardt S400 speakers in my living room if the I150 amplifier (which I pre-ordered and is planned for delivery in April) will not live up to it's expectation in improving the low level performance (LLE) of the speakers enough to my taste. In any case I will certainly try out the Rel t5i with the I150 amp both with high and low level connection and report back my findings.

 

[Eckelstone]

It sound like you never figured out how to properly integrate your subwoofer(s). The REL method of using the speaker level outputs does not allow for one of the main benefits of using subwoofers, relieving your main speakers of the deep bass duties and the distortion it creates. This holds true for small speakers, as well as large full range speakers. An additional note, many times the older REL's appeared to integrate better because they had very limited output. As such, people didn't set the sub level too high, a common issue that occurs when people introduce subwoofers.

Rel's inherently have lower output. I mean the Ti series, not their special HT series. You say common issue, based on what? Secondly, you claim that the benefit of a subwoofer is to relieving your mean speakers of deep bass duties is also a clear misconception. A HT subwoofer is designed to only display the LFE. A 'musical' sub on the other hand is meant to extend the low frequencies or make them fuller. In essence making your speakers sound bigger, not taking over part of their job. Preferably in a stereo setup and close to the speakers. If you have speakers that are too bass heavy and need to be tuned down, you just have the wrong speakers. Speakers are the first thing to get right.

I see for example that you use Philharmonic Mini Monitor speakers in a desktop setup. I understand why you would need to tame those down if they are backported, because bass would be all over the place if not. But in my view those are not the right speaker for that use case. A much better fit would be a true closed box monitor speaker designed for near field use, like the Harbeth P3's, Soundartist LS3/5a or ATC SCM7 if you want something more dynamic sounding etc. To extend the lows and seamless integration max an 8 inch Sub, preferably high level. I see you use a 12 inch subwoofer with those monitors. The gap between the 5 inch woofer of your monitors and the 12 inch of your sub is simply too big for good integration. Yes that is science. Also the 12 inch woofer will be much too slow to keep up with the monitors for that purpose. For someone who is claiming to know something about sub integration you do a very poor job.