Buchardt E50

[Deleted member 34697]

From the perspective of an orchestral musician with over 4 decades of critically listening & listening.... to myself & colleagues as an orchestral woodwind soloist....
I've had a pair of E50s for exactly three weeks. To say I'm impressed would be an understatement! They blow away the Sonus faber Electa Amators (https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-electa-amator-loudspeaker) which I've had forever, those speakers have the fabled Dynaudio Esotar tweeter. The Scanspeak tweeters used in the E50 have far greater purity and detail into the highest frequencies They have NO drag-inducing ferrofluid - used to absorb excess heat by other makers (including the Dynaudio Esotar) which means that the E50s start & stop incredibly quickly. For example, they turn indistinct drum rolls into clear individual drumstick beats, as in real life. Instrumental overtones / harmonics are reproduced so clearly, beautifully & free of grain, as I've only ever heard before in real life, meaning that instruments retain their quality & richness over their full range, low to high, with no trace of a "mid range scoop". As far as I'm concerned, that comment is utter nonsense! The Purifi woofer has established itself as having the lowest possible levels of distortion, and hence great clarity. If you were to measure the same technical parameters of my flute, let alone an entire symphony orchestra with over 100 members & so many different instruments widely spaced apart on the stage, do you think the results would be totally phase-coherent, have a completely flat frequency response, etc etc?
These E50s also have the abilty to play really softly - in technical terms "pianissimo" - which gives a greater than usual dynamic range (loud - soft) so crescendos are bigger and more exciting without actually getting simply louder. I could continue, but I think I've made my point. These speakers are stunning & the closest to real life that I've ever experienced outside of a concert hall!
(I'm not trying to sell you anything, but if you would like to put my comments into perspective check me out here: michaelscottflute.com)

 

[Purité Audio]

It does have a recessed midrange that is undeniable, but if you like that sound… I might have tried a really fine measuring loudspeaker alongside to have a real reference.
Keith

 

[Penelinfi]

From the perspective of an orchestral musician with over 4 decades of critically listening & listening.... to myself & colleagues as an orchestral woodwind soloist....
I've had a pair of E50s for exactly three weeks. To say I'm impressed would be an understatement! They blow away the Sonus faber Electa Amators (https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-electa-amator-loudspeaker) which I've had forever, those speakers have the fabled Dynaudio Esotar tweeter. The Scanspeak tweeters used in the E50 have far greater purity and detail into the highest frequencies They have NO drag-inducing ferrofluid - used to absorb excess heat by other makers (including the Dynaudio Esotar) which means that the E50s start & stop incredibly quickly. For example, they turn indistinct drum rolls into clear individual drumstick beats, as in real life. Instrumental overtones / harmonics are reproduced so clearly, beautifully & free of grain, as I've only ever heard before in real life, meaning that instruments retain their quality & richness over their full range, low to high, with no trace of a "mid range scoop". As far as I'm concerned, that comment is utter nonsense! The Purifi woofer has established itself as having the lowest possible levels of distortion, and hence great clarity. If you were to measure the same technical parameters of my flute, let alone an entire symphony orchestra with over 100 members & so many different instruments widely spaced apart on the stage, do you think the results would be totally phase-coherent, have a completely flat frequency response, etc etc?
These E50s also have the abilty to play really softly - in technical terms "pianissimo" - which gives a greater than usual dynamic range (loud - soft) so crescendos are bigger and more exciting without actually getting simply louder. I could continue, but I think I've made my point. These speakers are stunning & the closest to real life that I've ever experienced outside of a concert hall!
(I'm not trying to sell you anything, but if you would like to put my comments into perspective check me out here: michaelscottflute.com)

Your flute and orchestra may not be "flat frequency response and phase coherent". But do you want to make all music sound like your flute and orchestra? Maybe you do, maybe others don't. Imo not the best argument. I'm sure an orchestral hall has enough "slow" sound and distortion, so you don't need the ultra low distortion of the Purifi woofer either

 

[ssashton]

When I design xovers, especilly passive where a compromise usually needs to be made somewhere, I find it valuable to demo in multiple 'good' listening rooms before fixing a design. Else, you can choose a design that is only preferable in one specific environment.

 

[Deleted member 34697]

Your flute and orchestra may not be "flat frequency response and phase coherent". But do you want to make all music sound like your flute and orchestra? Maybe you do, maybe others don't. Imo not the best argument. I'm sure an orchestral hall has enough "slow" sound and distortion, so you don't need the ultra low distortion of the Purifi woofer either

The thing about a symphony orchestra is that we know what its supposed to sound like, with all those different and varied instruments, dynamics, etc. Having lived in one for 40+ years, those like me also know when it's being correctly reproduced. There are some things that can't be measured. But if others prefer to enjoy the pink noise, that's ok with me!

 

[MarkS]

I would think the sound one hears as a player in an orchestra is quite different from what the audience hears (and therefore what recorded sound is attempting to reproduce).

 

[Ktacos]

They have NO drag-inducing ferrofluid - used to absorb excess heat by other makers (including the Dynaudio Esotar) which means that the E50s start & stop incredibly quickly. For example, they turn indistinct drum rolls into clear individual drumstick beats, as in real life.

I would wager that has more to do with waveguide delivering a high degree of direct energy from the tweeter, not so much whether ferrofluid is used or not. I would be surprised if human hearing could pick up differences in tweeter impulse responses that ferrofluid may or may not change.

 

[Deleted member 34697]

I would think the sound one hears as a player in an orchestra is quite different from what the audience hears (and therefore what recorded sound is attempting to reproduce).

You may "think it" - but it's not true - it's certainly louder within, but is essentially the same. If you were to experience it for yourself, maybe in the recording booth, you would understand. We regularly listen to recordings during the process in order that each of us is satisfied with the result, so of course we know the sound as perceived by a listener just as well as we know the sound within the performance.

 

[mSpot]

if you would like to put my comments into perspective check me out here: michaelscottflute.com

Very cool to have a founding member of the Australian Chamber Orchestra posting here! I'm a fan and have enjoyed many ACO recordings.

Off topic: In the audio community, it is often said that most musicians have little interest in hifi. What do you see among your colleagues?

I would think the sound one hears as a player in an orchestra is quite different from what the audience hears (and therefore what recorded sound is attempting to reproduce).

On the other hand, most orchestral recordings are made with microphones placed much closer to the players than anybody in the audience.

 

[Ktacos]

You may "think it" - but it's not true - it's certainly louder within, but is essentially the same. If you were to experience it for yourself, maybe in the recording booth, you would understand. We regularly listen to recordings during the process in order that each of us is satisfied with the result, so of course we know the sound as perceived by a listener just as well as we know the sound within the performance.

Huh, I've brass in an orchestra, recorded and mixed them both live and for studio environments and that sound of sitting in the middle of it all doesn't even resemble the sound of the final mix result meant for home listening.

The thing about a symphony orchestra is that we know what its supposed to sound like

There's a very large variance in what people think sounds "correct" when it comes to almost all genres of music, even orchestras. Some people think an overhang of a stereo pair of mics sounds correct, while others find the sound of a large array of mics on groups to sound more correct. I do not find things to be as black and white as you are suggesting. I often find what people feel sounds more "real" typically has quite a bit of work put into it to create an illusion of "real".

 

[Deleted member 34697]

Huh, I've brass in an orchestra, recorded and mixed them both live and for studio environments and that sound of sitting in the middle of it all doesn't even resemble the sound of the final mix result meant for home listening.



There's a very large variance in what people think sounds "correct" when it comes to almost all genres of music, even orchestras. Some people think an overhang of a stereo pair of mics sounds correct, while others find the sound of a large array of mics on groups to sound more correct. I do not find things to be as black and white as you are suggesting. I often find what people feel sounds more "real" typically has quite a bit of work put into it to create an illusion of "real".

Sound Engineers need expertise also.
I don't suggest anything is black and white. If you had been living with a partner / wife / husband for a long period, you'd know & recognise their voice in any acoustic - in open space, in a large hall, a bathroom etc.
By the way, Brass is particularly fine and Brilliant with the E50s, can almost feel the players' breath coming through the bells.

 

[Deleted member 34697]

Very cool to have a founding member of the Australian Chamber Orchestra posting here! I'm a fan and have enjoyed many ACO recordings.

Off topic: In the audio community, it is often said that most musicians have little interest in hifi. What do you see among your colleagues?



On the other hand, most orchestral recordings are made with microphones placed much closer to the players than anybody in the audience.

Thanks for the comment! A few years ago, following a residency at the Barbican, the London Times music critic wrote that "if there's a finer Chamber Orchestra anywhere in the world I've yet to hear it" - this was after I'd left, but I emphasise not because I left!

You're correct in saying that "most musicians have little interest in hifi.". Very few of my colleagues share the interest, in fact I can only think of 5 others over the same period of time as myself. Why bother when we have the real thing at work every day? For each of us few though, the primary purpose was to listen to unfamiliar music that we were about to play, and hear how others play more familiar music. The others were all principal solo players like myself. Now retired from performing, I miss it immensely. It's like being cut off from an addiction, something I've had in my life forever and now still need my daily "fix", and I need the best quality I can get. afford.

 

[Matt_Holland]

It's like being cut off from an addiction, something I've had in my life forever and now still need my daily "fix", and I need the best quality I can get. afford.

welcome to ASR.

I guess that’s why they call them HiFi dealers…

 

[Tovarich007]

Huh, I've brass in an orchestra, recorded and mixed them both live and for studio environments and that sound of sitting in the middle of it all doesn't even resemble the sound of the final mix result meant for home listening.

I completely agree with you. As well for orchestras and choirs, I always experienced that when you're playing or singing among the singers or the instrumentists, the sound, the acoustic level, the dynamics and the space perspective are different from what you can hear when you're listening in the audience or in a studio , itself depending largely form the acoustics of the place (concert hall, or studio, or church,...). The only thing that remains the same are the intrinsic timbres of voices and instruments ; it's a a very important criteria indeed, but not the only one.

I have to say this personnal experience is shared by everyone I know involved in playing, singing or recording (except Fluty).

 

[Deleted member 34697]

I would wager that has more to do with waveguide delivering a high degree of direct energy from the tweeter, not so much whether ferrofluid is used or not. I would be surprised if human hearing could pick up differences in tweeter impulse responses that ferrofluid may or may not change.

 

[Deleted member 34697]

I completely agree with you. As well for orchestras and choirs, I always experienced that when you're playing or singing among the singers or the instrumentists, the sound, the acoustic level, the dynamics and the space perspective are different from what you can hear when you're listening in the audience or in a studio , itself depending largely form the acoustics of the place (concert hall, or studio, or church,...). The only thing that remains the same are the intrinsic timbres of voices and instruments ; it's a a very important criteria indeed, but not the only one.

I have to say this personnal experience is shared by everyone I know involved in playing, singing or recording (except Fluty).

I agree with you. Do you really think I never listen from the audience? Over a 40 year period? Of course I do - we all do!

 

[Matt_Holland]

View attachment 471934

There is nothing unusual or special about a hifi speaker using a non-fero fluid tweeter.

Buchardt have shown excellent engineering skills with every speaker they have launched. They are one of my personal favourite brands having lived with S400mk2 for a year a few years ago. One of the most musically satisfying speakers I’ve ever heard.

The E50 looks to be brilliantly executed as well and has a deliberate response shape to enhance the experience based on their blind listening tests. Interestingly Mads Buchardt has stated on his facebook group that they plan to launch an active E50 with a default linear response plus the option to use Master tunings to give different responses.

 

[Ktacos]

View attachment 471934

That's just marketing fluff, not really evidence for anything. Most tweeters have extremely quick impulse response. Hificompass is a review site for drivers and they capture step response of the drivers, so you can directly compare ferrofluid and non-ferrofluid drivers. From the looks of it there is no perceptible difference, and the "quickness" of the drivers decay appears to be very similar overall with some ferro fluid tweeters actually decaying faster. The time scale at which these differences occur is so small I would have a very hard time believing anyone could tell a difference.

Room reflections are what really smears things in terms of frequency and time domain. Waveguides do a good job of reducing room reflections by controlling the beam width. I stand by my statement that you are likely just experiencing a reduction in room reflections thanks to the waveguide. The dynaudio tweeters you mention are wider in their dispersion and less controlled overall, so the order of room reflections they will exhibit will be higher.

 

[Deleted member 34697]

The reason I joined this discussion was to query the reported "upper mid scoop" so that it did not deter any prospective buyer of what I consider to be a fantastic speaker. Here's a link to a YouTube video of a great classical / jazz hybrid performance. It's fascinating visually as well as aurally - the cameras actually find their target on time (unusually!). So that I can better understand this "scoop", could somebody please identify for me where it might be audible here? A time stamp would be great. Also please tell me what is the frequency range (eg A= 440Hz) where this is noticeable? Also, consider that every performer here would have put in something like (a generally recognised) 10,000 hours of studying / listening / practising not only their instrument but the music, over many years just to get to the starting gate. How good would our ears be?

 

[Matt_Holland]

The reason I joined this discussion was to query the reported "upper mid scoop" so that it did not deter any prospective buyer of what I consider to be a fantastic speaker. Here's a link to a YouTube video of a great classical / jazz hybrid performance. It's fascinating visually as well as aurally - the cameras actually find their target on time (unusually!). So that I can better understand this "scoop", could somebody please identify for me where it might be audible here? A time stamp would be great. Also please tell me what is the frequency range (eg A= 440Hz) where this is noticeable? Also, consider that every performer here would have put in something like (a generally recognised) 10,000 hours of studying / listening / practising not only their instrument but the music, over many years just to get to the starting gate. How good would our ears be?

In the grand scheme of things the E50 is quite linear. The now infamous scoop is not actually that severe and could even benefit some listeners who are sensitive I. The 2-4KHz region. What I think irks some people here is the designer’s deliberate decision to make the design less linear than was possible. The E50 also has excellent directivity which is absolutely necessary to achieve accurate sound in rooms, and another excellent trait is that it maintains very wide directivity above 5KHz.
From what I can gather the E50 has been tuned to have a classic hifi sound that is a slightly soft, recessed sound with some emphasis in the high treble and a “warm” character with what sounds like realistic tone on certain instruments. Voices set back slightly and a deep soundstage. This is at sodds with true linearity and people like Erin’s preference for more attack in the sound which is closer to the sound of real percussive instruments.