Buchardt Audio S400

[Daverz]

Hi everyone,
i would like to know, if the S400's is really suitable for smaller apartments (i know that the manufacturer claims this) more specificaly i heard the bass is quite strong and i would not want to harass my neighbors with this . I usualy have my music around 65 -73 Db (according to iphone DB measurement apps). May be a bit unspecific question but an overal suggestion would help. Thanks!

The bass is very satisfying, but the bottom octave is very attenuated, so I don't think it will bother the neighbors at that volume the way a full range speaker might.

 

[kaka89]

At first I don't know what does the Hub does, and then I realized it is required by A500!
Well, I don't hate this approach.

 

[Sancus]

At first I don't know what does the Hub does, and then I realized it is required by A500!
Well, I don't hate this approach.

Not entirely required, the speakers have a regular XLR analog input on the back as well. However, you do need the hub to access DSP, room correction, and all the streaming/digital input options.

Other WISA hubs would also work as inputs but probably not to access the DSP/room correction, I'm guessing.

 

[thewas]

What I don't like at the S400 (and coming S500) is that their directivity function is having 2 different characteristics, till 2 kHz is increasing like on common Hifi speakers and from there it is rather constant directivity like on bigger PA systems:

I have the feeling that this was also the reason I somehow liked tonally their S300 whose sound power is less smooth but more continuous without such clear kink at 2 kHz:

 

[napilopez]

Aside from the increased bass response, it's nice to see how much cleaner the sound power curve looks. It's very much of the JBL M2 variety... sloping down and then steady from the mids on up.

What I don't like at the S400 (and coming S500) is that their directivity function is having 2 different characteristics, till 2 kHz is increasing like on common Hifi speakers and from there it is rather constant directivity like on bigger PA systems:

View attachment 46730

I have the feeling that this was also the reason I somehow liked tonally their S300 whose directivity is less smooth but more continuous without that kink at 2 kHz:

View attachment 46731

Just a different was of designing speakers really - the overall shape isn't an issue so much as that dip in the directivity for the S300, I think. Luckily it seems the S500 smooths that out significantly.

One of Dr Toole's comments from the thread you posted the other day :

"Cone/dome loudspeakers tend to show a gently rising directivity index (DI) with frequency and well designed horn loudspeakers (like the M2) exhibit quite constant DI over their operating frequency range. There is no evidence that either is advantageous - both are highly rated by listeners. "

The new A500 is actually pretty similar to the JBL M2. Which makes sense. The giant waveguide is also basically a horn.

JBL M2:

Buchardt A500:

Basically constant directivity from 2K up on the A500 (note this is the 2.5-way configuration, we don't know what the 3-way measurements look like yet), whereas the M2 starts at 1K, though the transition is steeper on the buchardt.

 

[Juhazi]

Buchardt's deep waveguide makes them have good imaging and clarity in small rooms, but in large rooms they can sound dull or unbalanced - both because of the high directivity above 1,5kHz. Most Amphions are in same category.

Listener preference and intended usage is the question and decision to make. Worth a listening test.

 

[thewas]

Just a different was of designing speakers really - the overall shape isn't an issue so much as that dip in the directivity for the S300, I think. Luckily it seems the S500 smooths that out significantly.
...
One of Dr Toole's comments from the thread you posted the other day :

"Cone/dome loudspeakers tend to show a gently rising directivity index (DI) with frequency and well designed horn loudspeakers (like the M2) exhibit quite constant DI over their operating frequency range. There is no evidence that either is advantageous - both are highly rated by listeners. "

The new A500 is actually pretty similar to the JBL M2. Which makes sense. The giant waveguide is also basically a horn.

Basically constant directivity from 2K up on the A500 (note this is the 2.5-way configuration, we don't know what the 3-way measurements look like yet), whereas the M2 starts at 1K, though the transition is steeper on the buchardt.

The directivity dip of the S300 is a quite classical BBC dip of classical 2-way speakers without a waveguide which makes the presence region sounding warmer (which can help on older/poorer recordings), personally I can live with it more than with the sound of constant directivity horns in a home hifi enviroment.

Also there is a big difference, the constant directivity of the M2 starts already on low 800 Hz while on the Buchardt at 2 kHz.

Also the constant directivity JBL M2 got despite its smoother curves less preferences than a top Revel with more hifi (wider and continously decreasing) directivity in a large group blind testing done in another forum.

 

[napilopez]

Yeah I bring that blind test up all the time as an argument in favor of wide directivity, which I also generally prefer, and I bet most do in a home situation =] But a lot of people do clearly prefer their constant/narrower directivity, often mixing engineers. Here's where preference comes in!

I liked the S400 a lot, but thought voices were a bit recessed, likely because of the 2k dip in the SP curve and early reflections. Hopefully the smoother performance on the S500 helps address that issue.

 

[thewas]

Did you listen also to the S300? Somehow it impressed me more than the S400, maybe because of my expectations after the S300 experience where very high, while I listened to the S300 a year before when I did't know anything about the company and model so the positive surprise was larger...

 

[kaka89]

I recently got a ATC SCM40 which also features a wide directivity.

The placement is forgiving for this speaker, one can sit close to it and still receive an ok sound stage, but the imaging is lacking a bit of depth and not super sharp.

 

[9radua1]

Do I detect a small dab at the MQA folks? From the description:

“This means that we can ensure that the package of bits stored in the mastering studio where the music is recorded can be transported without any loss directly into the heart of the speakers, where our perfectly matches signal path takes over the processing of the data.”

https://www.buchardtaudio.com/a500-detailed-description

 

[Soniclife]

Also there is a big difference, the constant directivity of the M2 starts already on low 800 Hz while on the Buchardt at 2 kHz.

The talked about different cardioid turnings may well change that a lot, but so far no measurements to know how much.

 

[napilopez]

Mads had previously noted this preliminary, not-final spin for the cardiod configuration in this thread. Highlighting preliminary since I have no clue if this is what the final product will look like.

You can see it has a bit narrower directivity in the mids than the 2.5-way spin above, but I think a smoother overall transition as you rise inf frequency. Curious to hear what the two configurations sound like in practice.

If vertical directivity is better controlled in the listening window (an issue the S400 had, making them less than ideal for nearfield use), it might even make for a good studio monitor.

 

[peanuts]

a500 is a weird design. a passive radiator needs to have a minimum of twice the capacity of the active woofer, 3x is recommended. it seems to use the same woofer as PR? also group delay of any such speaker is terrible compared to bass reflex. i have no idea why they dont use that instead. marketing gimmick?

 

[napilopez]

a500 is a weird design. a passive radiator needs to have a minimum of twice the capacity of the active woofer, 3x is recommended. it seems to use the same woofer as PR? also group delay of any such speaker is terrible compared to bass reflex. i have no idea why they dont use that instead. marketing gimmick?

It's not a passive radiator, it's another driver.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Okay. Even with the boost to bass from natural reinforcement, I don't believe these numbers. You could shove these speakers 1cm from solid concrete corners and I you wouldn't get 105dB SPL from the little 6 inch woofers at 25hz. What the heck.

 

[napilopez]

View attachment 46760

View attachment 46761

Okay. Even with the boost to bass from natural reinforcement, I don't believe these numbers. You could shove these speakers 1cm from solid concrete corners and I you wouldn't get 105dB SPL from the little 6 inch woofers at 25hz. What the heck.

Where are you getting 105dB SPL from? It says right on the description page:

"The standard master tuning the speakers come with, is a 2.5 way design, tuned to 25hz straight with a variable bass tuning. This means if you play at 100dB, you can of course not expect two 6” woofers to generate 25hz. The system will then smoothly set the bass tuning higher, so the woofers don’t break. We think this is the best overall tuning for most people. "

Seems pretty straightforward to me. The nice thing is you have the option to extend the bass lower if you don't listen very loud, or roll the bass off earlier if you do and want to cross with a sub.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

I don’t think I understand how to read the measurements provided then. I see plus or minus 1.5dB so I assumed it meant they claim that 25hz will only be 1.5dB down from all the other frequencies above. If I’m wrong how am I supposed to read it?

 

[fredoamigo]

A500 are now listed at €3200/pair (€300 pre-order discount), for those interested. Lots of interesting information on them and the ability to change software tuning.

I'm surprised that the pre-order campaign is starting now when deliveries won't start for another 6 months?

"""
DELIVERY JUNE - PRE ORDER CAMPAIGN (€300 OFF) ""

the second surprise is the similarities with SA Audio especially the rear panel and the hub? https://system-audio.com/product/sa-legend-7-silverback/

 

[napilopez]

I don’t think I understand how to read the measurements provided then. I see plus or minus 1.5dB so I assumed it meant they claim that 25hz will only be 1.5dB down from all the other frequencies above. If I’m wrong how am I supposed to read it?

No, you're understanding that part right. It's just that like most DSP speakers, the A500 will only be able to safely maintain that linear bass up to a certain SPL level, as of yet undefined. For example, here's the Devialet Phantom Reactor 900's response in my room, with both speakers playing. Speakers are about 1-2 feet from the rear wall and my listening position is 10 feet away. This speaker has just two 4-inch bass drivers:



The bass (which there's actually too much of, but that's another story), reaches about 95 dB before compression kicks in from 20-60Hz. That's more than enough volume for my needs, but it might not be enough for someone who listens from afar or really likes to play loud. Presumably the A500 will work somewhat similarly.