Bryston BP-25 Preamp, 10B-Sub Electronic Crossover, and 3B-ST Amplifier - Measurements and Review

[101geo]

No mention of cables?

 

[Clara 7]

Next to most of you guys, like Sgt. Schultz " I know nothing ", but it is great reading these Bryston reviews. I am learning a great deal from reading reviews and following threads here on ASR. I am 62 now, and the greatest audio system I had over 30 years ago now was a Bryston stack centered around the 2BSST, with a Bryston pre-amp-DAC and CD Player. I loved this system, but had to sell it to pay bills back in the day.

I have always wanted to own the 4BSST, now the 4B3, and I still compare pretty much every amp I read about to the 4B3. My argument for the Bryston 4B3 is " This one goes to Eleven".

Anyway, Thanks MAB, for the great reviews.

 

[bigguyca]

Thanks for the kind words.

The cost was high, 2-3x an equivalent Adcom for example.

My memory was fuzzy on the list prices back in ~1995, I recall:
BP-25: ~$2000 (the phono and DAC modules added large cost, mine is the basic version)
3B-ST: ~$1600
10B-Sub: ~$1500
Bryston was seldom sold at any discount.
I got mine when I worked at a store that sold them, so did get a discount. The crossover was used, still not cheap.

You can make an argument that $50 per year per piece isn't too bad. It's a weak argument, but sounds good in hindsight.

It may be true that most Bryston gear is or wasn't sold at a discount, but it only took or takes a bit of shopping to get discounts. This is true of most AV equipment. This doesn't mean run-of-the-mill sales, it means getting quotes and talking with people.

My favorite Bryston piece is the 4BSST2. Schematics for most Bryston power amplifiers up through the 4BSST2 are available on the Internet. Until the past few years the schematics for the Bryston power amplifiers were even available on Bryston.com. Some preamp schematics are also available.

Bryston power amplifiers are very interesting. One unusual feature is that the amps have a nested feedback loop with the output section having its own loop with a closed loop gain of 3x per memory. The amps had an amazing build quality. I've not had my hands on a recent unit. The ST in a the name of many of the amplifiers is for Stuart Taylor who did many of the designs.

 

[GavriloD]

Bryston, at this point, has nothing that made their products attractive in the past.

You can get a much better-performing Class D amplifier from Buckeye and others.

Their DAC/Streamer is stupidly priced, dual AKM AK4490, better or equivalent DACs are dime a dozen, and you can get streamers for nothing.

Bryston will either reinvent itself ot go out of business.

 

[sceptical1]

They are making an attempt, you just don't realize it. The new T10 series of loudspeakers is well regarded, moreso than the original series that customers and reviewers agreed were excellent and accurate.

They have the digital amplifier series available with linear supply. The best of both worlds effidiency and peak power as opposed to your dynamically crippled smps based designs.

Look at a direct comparison between the (industry opined) best amp available, the benchmark ah2b and a 4bsst3. Both available at about the same price (that is 2 benchmarks in mono) yet the single 4b puts out more (4x the peak) power, is equal in thd even when measured with 14db more gain than the benchmark I might add, has a warranty 6 times longer and quality of design and assembly equal to or better than the benchmark.

If you mean the competitive realm of dacs,phono, streamers sure they can't compete. You need to realize that these products are made available for customers who want a complete bryston system and believe me there are alot of fans with alot f money that would have been left on the table if not taken advantage.

You must have thought of a dozen other hi end companies that deserve your wrath more than bryston. Take another stab at it.

 

[Vhond]

It would be interesting to measure the BP25 together with the MPS-1 Power Supply instead of the older BP-PSR one to see what's the influence of the power supply.
Also I read some people about recapping these older gear.
What components are in favour?
BP25 schematics

 

[EJ3]

Bryston, at this point, has nothing that made their products attractive in the past.

You can get a much better-performing Class D amplifier from Buckeye and others.

Their DAC/Streamer is stupidly priced, dual AKM AK4490, better or equivalent DACs are dime a dozen, and you can get streamers for nothing.

Bryston will either reinvent itself ot go out of business.

There are those of us that neither stream (either don't want to and/or live in places where you have to drive 30 or more minutes to get a decent cell phone signal [I'm in both catagories]).
And are not enamored by Class D, and believe in helping the environment a bit by having repairable gear that doesn't end up in the land fill.( I'm in that category, too).
I tend to deal with places that have a similar philosophy, such as:
Audio Proz from Watertown, MA (USA):
Audio Proz has been in the Hi-Fi and Pro Audio business for over 50 years.
The owner, Vince Naeve has worked for companies such as Apt, H.H. Scott, and KLH.
And says:
We assist our customers by helping them choose the correct equipment for their application, with special attention to the
serviceability, longevity and manufacturer support.
We try to be competitive on prices for new products and all of our used items are fully serviced, calibrated and Warranteed.
We do not stock cheap throw away electronics that are actually more expensive to own and needlessly pollute the environment.
A man of my philosophical ideas.
It is rare for me to buy something that will not be able to be repaired in the future. And will end up in the landfill in my lifetime.
EJ3

 

[Bob101]

There are those of us that neither stream (either don't want to and/or live in places where you have to drive 30 or more minutes to get a decent cell phone signal [I'm in both catagories]).
And are not enamored by Class D, and believe in helping the environment a bit by having repairable gear that doesn't end up in the land fill.( I'm in that category, too).
I tend to deal with places that have a similar philosophy, such as:
Audio Proz from Watertown, MA (USA):
Audio Proz has been in the Hi-Fi and Pro Audio business for over 50 years.
The owner, Vince Naeve has worked for companies such as Apt, H.H. Scott, and KLH.
And says:
We assist our customers by helping them choose the correct equipment for their application, with special attention to the
serviceability, longevity and manufacturer support.
We try to be competitive on prices for new products and all of our used items are fully serviced, calibrated and Warranteed.
We do not stock cheap throw away electronics that are actually more expensive to own and needlessly pollute the environment.
A man of my philosophical ideas.
It is rare for me to buy something that will not be able to be repaired in the future. And will end up in the landfill in my lifetime.
EJ3

Well designed Class D is not landfill, but superior to AB in every way. It's 2025, not 1996.

 

[101geo]

Well designed Class D is not landfill, but superior to AB in every way. It's 2025, not 1996.

While I may agree with you on that point, what if we already have decent, over engineered reputable class AB amps? Is it worth upgrading? I'm tempted by a modern class D amp but how will it stack up against a big Bryston or Threshold, both of which I already own? It should be better but can I hear the difference?

 

[Luvchampagne]

While I may agree with you on that point, what if we already have decent, over engineered reputable class AB amps? Is it worth upgrading? I'm tempted by a modern class D amp but how will it stack up against a big Bryston or Threshold, both of which I already own? It should be better but can I hear the difference?

I’m in the same boat as you. I have McIntosh MC7270 x 2 and have been looking at various Class D options. I have a Yamaha MXD1 and use that on my Salon2 and very happy with it. Upgradeitis has me looking , not need.

 

[EJ3]

Well designed Class D is not landfill, but superior to AB in every way. It's 2025, not 1996.

Sure it is (but I seriously doubt that you will be able to hear the difference in my 1987 NAD 2200 and your whatever Class D, not to mention a tad bit of power):
It is power measurements where the magic of this amplifier comes to life so let's look at that with 4 ohm load first:

We can see a kink in distortion when we hit 200 watts as the unit sails past that to produce whopping 337 watts per channel, both driven! Per design characteristics, you can have much more during momentary peaks:

Wow, we have one kilowatt of power coming out of this amp in short duration!
Lab Input Measurements
I was surprised that the frequency response was not flat but was relieved to see later in the thread that this is due to insertion of low and high pass filters. So here is the frequency response with Lab input that doesn't have such a filter:

Response now (in green) as it should be, ruler flat to below 10 Hz, and well extending past the 40 kHz limit of this measurement.

I figured the filters may be adding some noise/distortion so re-ran the dashboard again:

Distortion doesn't change but if you look at the noise floor at 20 Hz, it is down by some 10 dB. That improves SINAD a couple of dBs, making the amplifier stand out even more!



Zoomed:

And signal to noise ratio:

Conclusions
Nice to see innovation like this from equipment that is over 30 years old! Shame on manufacturers that produce amplifiers for much less power, more distortion and higher prices these days. No, you don't get a fancy case here and sheet metal is strictly budget category. But you are not going to sit on the amp. The guts are where it matters and NAD 2200 delivers.

NOTE: the output relay on stock 2200 gets corroded and fails over time. There are videos and DIY threads on how to upgrade the relay there to fix the problem. The unit tested here has that fix. Other than that, there are not reports of many other reliability issues even though NAD products are often said to be less reliable than other brands.

Overall, I am happy to recommend the NAD 2200. I almost gave it the highest honors but given the upgraded nature of the test unit, and the fact that used amps may have issues, I avoided that. But you could have easily pushed me to give it the golfing panther.

NOTE: the output relay on stock 2200 gets corroded and fails over time. There are videos and DIY threads on how to upgrade the relay there to fix the problem. The unit tested here has that fix. Other than that, there are not reports of many other reliability issues even though NAD products are often said to be less reliable than other brands.

Overall, I am happy to recommend the NAD 2200. I almost gave it the highest honors but given the upgraded nature of the test unit, and the fact that used amps may have issues, I avoided that. But you could have easily pushed me to give it the golfing panther.

Last edited: Jun 10, 2020

SO, convinece me that you can hear the difference, that you have the power and that your Class D won't be mucking up the envionment with it's non-reparable dead carcass in 38 years. YES THIRTY EIGHT YEARS! NO LANDFILL YET! (I have updated the caps, etc but nothing has ever BROKE!
And while it wasn't tests into 2 Ohms, that is how I use them, every day, without anny issues (bridged mono 2 ohms gets you 1796 watts).

Your turn to put up or shut up!

 

[Midiot]

I could never afford Bryston's ... until I learned how to fix broken ones, or refurbish their electronics.
I've bought three 2B amps, two 2B-LP, and a BP-25 pre ....from e bay.... some working, some not, some didn't say.
I replaced all electrolytic caps, tired-looking resistors, tantalum caps, and the main output transistors only if needed. There are modern replacements for the older obsolete output transistors.
There is no DC offset adjustment. Their DC offset spec relies on the good "matching" of the transistors done at the factory. Bias is not difficult to adjust with a little patience.
There are threads on DIYAudio and elsewhere with detailed instructions.
I use both the 2B-LP's at my art studio and office, and the BP-25 lives in my main system at home.

 

[Haflermichi]

Well designed Class D is not landfill, but superior to AB in every way. It's 2025, not 1996.

Define "well designed". The very nature of modern economics / electronics dictates repair by replacement. Good luck finding a manufacturer who will do component level repair down to individual smd. The entire board will almost certainly replaced, swapped in and out in minutes. Depending on the complexity of the device there may only be one board...Where do you think that defective pcb is going to end up?
It is not economical for manufacturers to have technicians spend time "troubleshooting" such modern smd populated products down to component level. As long as thru-hole components are available, granted not that that is guaranteed to continue indefinitely, a great many "1990's" audio amplifiers will remain serviceable by qualified technicians, and sometimes even resourceful diy enthusiast/owners themselves.
In that regard I do not consider ANY Class D amplifier, well or poorly designed, to be superior to 1996 AB.

 

[Vhond]

I could never afford Bryston's ... until I learned how to fix broken ones, or refurbish their electronics.
I've bought three 2B amps, two 2B-LP, and a BP-25 pre ....from e bay.... some working, some not, some didn't say.
I replaced all electrolytic caps, tired-looking resistors, tantalum caps, and the main output transistors only if needed. There are modern replacements for the older obsolete output transistors.
There is no DC offset adjustment. Their DC offset spec relies on the good "matching" of the transistors done at the factory. Bias is not difficult to adjust with a little patience.
There are threads on DIYAudio and elsewhere with detailed instructions.
I use both the 2B-LP's at my art studio and office, and the BP-25 lives in my main system at home.

Can you please tell which caps you replaced? The electrolytics I can imagine but which other components did you replace? About the elco's axial 100 uF capacitors are harder to get these days (especially bipolar). Which did you use? I attached the schematic (maybe you can tell which components you replaced)?

 

[Midiot]

....... the elco's axial 100 uF capacitors are harder to get these days (especially bipolar). Which did you use?

I replaced the axial bi-polars with radials. I neatly spread (bent) their leads to accommodate the holes and left them standing. For smaller caps this is acceptable for me.
I used Nichicon ES Muse bi-polar (those green ones).

 

[Mnyb]

Hmm , it's a tad harsh to claim that the spent boards from modern electronics all goes to the landfill , they get recycled for valuable materials that's inside the components . So modern electronics are rarely repaired but recycled .

Where i live no one puts electronics or batteries in the normal garbage bin ?

I do tend tend to agree that stuff should be repairable , it would be better if also modern designs where repairable then it would be even better as their small size and low mass did not consume so much resources .

There would be no point in replacing fully functional 90's electronics .

If you have the skills repairing 90's electronics is a really good solution . the amplifier already exists, nothing but a handfull of components needs to be produced .

Refurbishing already existing stuff is usually almost always better for the environment than producing new stuff .

Energy consumption is a factor for things that runs 24/7/365 but for a power amp you can always turn it off when not used .

Don't use Class A space heaters if you can avoid it !

 

[Midiot]

Since you showed the schematic, it is obvious how simple a preamp can be.
The lower two thirds of the schematic is the power supply, phono pre, and lots of remote control circuitry.
The upper third is input buffers, output buffers, level pots, and switches...that's it. Bryston uses their discrete version of opamps , but fine results are possible with off-the-shelf socketed opamps (I've built several).
All a basic preamp does is match impedance plus provide listening level knobs and switching conveniences. It is simply a hub for incoming and outgoing signals.
Personally, I don't have a desire to pay multiple thousands of dollars for a fancy switch box. Another personal opinion is, I am not sure how a super-duper last-in-the-chain opamp will get you any closer to glorious reality than the last-in-the-line opamp at the recording studio...... which could have been a ~50 year old NE5532 opamp.

"According to Douglas Self, "there is probably no music on the planet that has not passed through a hundred or more 5532s on its way to the consumer" (wikipedia and LINK)

The real design challenge for a preamp is to tolerate a wide variety of incoming and outgoing impedance, quiet circuitry routing, ample power supply, faithful switching and level pots, plus whatever extra conveniences you are willing to pay for.
If a preamp is credited for adding some audio nirvana to the music, then it is coloring the sound....or your former preamp was especially naughty.

 

[MAB]

Can you please tell which caps you replaced? The electrolytics I can imagine but which other components did you replace? About the elco's axial 100 uF capacitors are harder to get these days (especially bipolar). Which did you use? I attached the schematic (maybe you can tell which components you replaced)?

In the first post of this thread an original and unmodified BP-25 preamp is tested. It shows stellar performance, no evidence of deteriorating capacitors. Also no aged relays, which quite frankly are often more responsible for deterioration than capacitors, unless the capacitors were under stress or flat out poor quality.

I do have some gear with poor quality and marginally implemented capacitors. Perhaps I will post the pre-and post-rebuild data on my A/D/S Atelier integrated amp as an example, which is a train accident of poor component choices, overheated capacitors and regulators, and relays baked inside the unventilated chassis, combined with bad manufacturing.

Back to your BP-25, what is wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong, why would you speculate that it needs new components (capacitors or otherwise)? Unless something bad happened in the past few decades that you haven't mentioned.

 

[Steven Holt]

There's certainly something to be said for a high quality and well-made amplifier with very good specs. Kudos to Bryston, quality never goes out of style.

 

[Midiot]

In the first post of this thread an original and unmodified BP-25 preamp is tested. It shows stellar performance, no evidence of deteriorating capacitors.

I agree the caps very often do not need replacing unless there is a problem. I do it on 30+ year old gear where I do not know it's history. Maybe it has been powered for 20 years continuously ??
I do it for peace of mind, mostly.... and for future-proofing. It gives an excellent placebo effect improvement.