Bryston BP-25 Preamp, 10B-Sub Electronic Crossover, and 3B-ST Amplifier - Measurements and Review

[sceptical1]

. The analyzer clips at ~8V

This was not mentioned originally. If the output is 30v balanced the unbalanced output should be half that, right?
This is a quiet amp. I doubt the 20hz distortion is due to supply noise as pma claims. Stereophile claims -92db unwtd at 1W.

A link to the quant specs is fine if you have it.

Thanks

 

[Angsty]

This happened to me so often and consistently, I took it for granted, the Meridian I mentioned (and my subsequent vintage preamps) sounding 'perfect' from switch-on. I know, I shouldn't have mentioned it here... Had I been single, I'd have left the blessed thing on 24/7 and not given it a moment's thought, but herself and our cruel electricity prices dictate otherwise. I certainly don't bother about such things now... I turn the stuff on, use them as much as time allows and then switch off after. Back then, the subjectivist part of me was far more up-front I have to say...

I was also intrigued by the BP26 having more 'supplies' to each stage of the circuit (I can't remember how they were configured). Maybe this was marketing to justify the massive price hike in a not tech-savvy audiophile market?

Thanks for this review. Good to know their gear holds up well even out of warranty

The multiple power supplies in the BP26 power supply (the MPS-2) were meant to solve a practical problem - customers who would own multiple external power supplies. I have the BP-1.5 phono which can run off a separate MPS-1 power supply or off the MPS-2 when used with a BP-26.

They were trying to solve a practically non-existent future problem - customers who owned equipment requiring two or more MPS-1 supplies. A single MPS-1 can power both the BP-25 and the BP-1.5 simultaneously with a connecting cable; it could have powered the BP-26 and BP-2, as well. The DACs, digital players, and CD players all had internal power supplies.

So, the MPS-2 ended up being over-priced, over-spec'ed and it discouraged some consumers from buying the BP-26 or the BP-2. Eventually, the MPS-2 kinda faded away and was replaced with the PS-3 single-output power supply for many sales.

The MPS-1 replaced the BP-PSR power supply used in this BP-25 test and the remote was later replaced with a unit having membrane buttons.

 

[Jarrett]

I had a b100 integrated for a few decades and a 4B3 for maybe 5.

I hate audiophile BS less than some of y'all but more than most. Bryston hardware to me justifies its high asking price. Its built really well in the engineering sense like a nice industrial instrument. You can just tell everything fits right, operates correctly, and was made with care. I feel like a lot of high end gear uses a 2" thick face plate to hide flakey firmware and jankey layouts.

As an added bonus the company is ran by really cool people and they are serious about supporting their products.

My dream is to own a BDA-3 (or when they update it next) for a nice paired silver stack with the B60. This forum makes it hard to justify

 

[MAB]

This was not mentioned originally. If the output is 30v balanced the unbalanced output should be half that, right?

Yes, Stereophile only tested the unbalanced output of the preamp, and they measure it clips at 15 volts, which is (no surprise) consistent with single ended output on a preamp that clips on the balanced outputs at 30V. And 15V/30V unbalanced/balanced is what Bryston correctly states it will do. In summary: my measurements of the balanced output are really consistent with Stereophile's measurements of the unbalanced section of the same preamp.

This is a quiet amp. I doubt the 20hz distortion is due to supply noise as pma claims. Stereophile claims -92db unwtd at 1W.

PMA and I were discussing the power amp, you are asking me about the preamp. We are talking past each other as a result. I understand PMA's point. Also, I see how the comparison to Stereophile's unbalanced measurements become confusing. I was also worried putting three devices in the same test might make forum discussion confusing, it appears it has done just that!

A link to the quant specs is fine if you have it.

Thanks

 

[Angsty]

I had a b100 integrated for a few decades and a 4B3 for maybe 5.

I hate audiophile BS less than some of y'all but more than most. Bryston hardware to me justifies its high asking price. Its built really well in the engineering sense like a nice industrial instrument. You can just tell everything fits right, operates correctly, and was made with care. I feel like a lot of high end gear uses a 2" thick face plate to hide flakey firmware and jankey layouts.

As an added bonus the company is ran by really cool people and they are serious about supporting their products.

I also have a B100 in my office system. I don't think the preamp (BP-16 circuitry) is quite as good as the BP-25, but the remote is a lot more useful. I have another BP-1.5 phono with the B100. I really preferred it for MC use over the Sutherland Insight it replaced, although still I think the Insight is a great component.

Back to the items in the test: how do the MiniDSP devices compare to the 10B in functionality and fidelity? I have need for a single sub stereo crossover, but the Bryston always seemed to be to pricey compared to other alternatives for a simple system.

 

[Angsty]

My dream is to own a BDA-3 (or when they update it next) for a nice paired silver stack with the B60. This forum makes it hard to justify

Although I would have preferred an all-Bryston stack for aesthetic reasons, the BDA-3 does not perform better than my Topping D70s. The Topping also has Bluetooth, which is quite useful.

 

[MAB]

I also have a B100 in my office system. I don't think the preamp (BP-16 circuitry) is quite as good as the BP-25, but the remote is a lot more useful. I have another BP-1.5 phono with the B100. I really preferred it for MC use over the Sutherland Insight it replaced, although still I think the Insight is a great component.

Back to the items in the test: how do the MiniDSP devices compare to the 10B in functionality and fidelity? I have need for a single sub stereo crossover, but the Bryston always seemed to be to pricey compared to other alternatives for a simple system.

I no longer use the 10B. It has great performance, but I need more filters, you likely might as well. I actually started using modified / kit-bashed Linkwitz Phoenix active crossovers, not as high performance but had notches, shelfs, delays, etc. I now use MiniDSP to do all sub and active speaker building. The MiniDSP devices I have are equivalent or better performance than the Bryston 10B, not that I can hear these performance differences.

 

[sceptical1]

My dream is to own a BDA-3 (or when they update it next) for a nice paired silver stack with the B60. This forum makes it hard to justify

I know what you mean. Looking at the new Boxem 4216 compared to any class ab including one that is highly regarded in reputation and performance as Bryston is, no comparison can be made based on price.
Bryston is making an attempt with the BD series of class d amps, still 3 times the price of the Boxem, while still insisting that a linear PS is needed to maintain the peak output capabilities of their normal amps when nobody cares, can hear the difference or listens at peak levels of 120db (other than Amir, )
As an example, the b60 at 60w at 8 ohms has a peak output power of 265w at 2 ohms. the boxem with an SMPS is 160w and 560w peak. Basically the same percentage difference in peak output.

The high resale value (are people imagining this?) makes it worse for secondhand buyers now that out of warranty service is available at a $600 flat rate instead of gratis or near cost as mentioned here and there by fans referring to something that happened way back when.
If value is what this forum is all about I don't see how vintage components could matter in any way other than as nostalgia.

 

[Golden Ears]

I have had many Bryston 4B amplifiers for over 30 years., I do find that not all of them sound the same. The ones with three clipping indicators and chrome handles with a more matte finish seem to have the best clarity and imaging...better than current models. It's not something you can identify in a few seconds, but after a while you are aware of differences in the enjoyment of music and the harshness of the amplifier with violins and horns. and the rotundness of the bass frequencies. I have gone to vacuum tubes but I do miss the days when you turned on the amp and you knew it work every time for decades. To be fair some of my point to point wired H.H.Scott and Sherwood vintage integrated tube amps are nearly as trouble free save the occasional power tube swap.

 

[Mr. Widget]

This is how all hifi should be built and designed flawless operation for decades !

100%

There are many here who are either too young to remember a time when we bought things to last, or they just don't think about the future and prefer buying inexpensive things that perform well during a shorter time horizon. My grandmother used to say she was too poor to buy cheap things. She would have liked Bryston!

 

[pma]

Yeah. Now the cheap DACs and amps are bought for fun and exchanged like everyday socks.

 

[Purité Audio]

You shouldn’t scrimp on socks.
Keith

 

[MAB]

I have had many Bryston 4B amplifiers for over 30 years., I do find that not all of them sound the same. The ones with three clipping indicators and chrome handles with a more matte finish seem to have the best clarity and imaging...better than current models. It's not something you can identify in a few seconds, but after a while you are aware of differences in the enjoyment of music and the harshness of the amplifier with violins and horns. and the rotundness of the bass frequencies. I have gone to vacuum tubes but I do miss the days when you turned on the amp and you knew it work every time for decades. To be fair some of my point to point wired H.H.Scott and Sherwood vintage integrated tube amps are nearly as trouble free save the occasional power tube swap.

I think you might want to review a bit more of ASR and the information available on what humans actually can hear, and what sighted listening does to our ability to discriminate.

Suffice to say most amps sound the same. Bryston are even more indistinguishable than most.
See page 78 for a classic test of how properly working amps are indistinguishable.
https://americanradiohistory.com/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf
Bryston amps work properly unless broken.

 

[Serg]

This is how all hifi should be built and designed flawless operation for decades !

Yessir, agreed 100%! The entry price for Bryston is very high, but the quality (and warranty) is there for sure.

 

[Jarrett]

I think you might want to review a bit more of ASR and the information available on what humans actually can hear, and what sighted listening does to our ability to discriminate.

Suffice to say most amps sound the same. Bryston are even more indistinguishable than most.
See page 78 for a classic test of how properly working amps are indistinguishable.
https://americanradiohistory.com/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf
Bryston amps work properly unless broken.

What would the SINAD on the B60 be? Silly theoretical question

 

[MAB]

What would the SINAD on the B60 be? Silly theoretical question

I can't predict it's performance from my tests here. They are two different devices.

Stereophile did measure the B-60R

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bryston-b-60r-integrated-amplifier-measurements.

We can compare Stereophile's measurements of the B-60R to the 3BST on the same test hardware.

Comparing the THD+N performance into 8 Ohms, the B-60R achieves 0.006% at 30 Watts, the 3BST has 0.0015% at 30 Watts, gets to about 0.001% at just over 100 Watts.
So the B-60R integrated amp is slightly worse than the 3BST amp. Which is awesome considering it's compact, and has a preamp.

 

[Yersinia Bestmate]

Impressive performance!

 

[Alegretti]

Excellent!
Only the 32-tone test was missing.
But I'm absolutely sure they would do very well.

 

[MerlinGS]

I have had many Bryston 4B amplifiers for over 30 years., I do find that not all of them sound the same. The ones with three clipping indicators and chrome handles with a more matte finish seem to have the best clarity and imaging...better than current models. It's not something you can identify in a few seconds, but after a while you are aware of differences in the enjoyment of music and the harshness of the amplifier with violins and horns. and the rotundness of the bass frequencies. I have gone to vacuum tubes but I do miss the days when you turned on the amp and you knew it work every time for decades. To be fair some of my point to point wired H.H.Scott and Sherwood vintage integrated tube amps are nearly as trouble free save the occasional power tube swap.

In the 90s, I remember reading a reviewer (Stereophile or Absolute Sound) commenting that one could predict the sound of the amps by the color of their front panels. Conrad Johnson had a warm, golden front panel...low and behold, the amp was often described as warm sounding. Audio Research had silver front panels (not to mention they often looked like lab equipment)...as expected, their amps were described as very transparent and analytical.

If one really wants the ears to be the arbiter of sound quality, then the eyes should be prevented from distorting/biasing the experience (thus the value of double blind tests).

PS, I am not trying to suggest the CJ amps from the 90s were not euphonic and the AR less so, just noting the reviewer's conclusions (and yes, the differences between the amp brands could be measured).

 

[t$$]

Thanks for this! I got a Bryston 2 Channel Preamp and 4ST amp for free from a neighbor about 10 years ago and have used it off and on since. Good to know that they hold up.