Brian Eno 3 speaker setup, Hafler circuit, etc.

[Lord Bobbymort]

Just get a multichannel system, and upmix your music to more speakers

Less expensive to use what I have now than spend on multichannel

 

[Front Row]

Finally got around to setting up third speaker to create the Hafler Circuit. I am pleasantly stunned by the results.

 

[Lord Bobbymort]

Finally got around to setting up third speaker to create the Hafler Circuit. I am pleasantly stunned by the results.

Nice! How'd you actually end up hooking it all up? What did you listen to? What was it like?

If you toe the L and R speakers in, to cross in front of your listening position, it might work even better. Jim

Interesting, why do you say?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Finally got around to setting up third speaker to create the Hafler Circuit. I am pleasantly stunned by the results.

I was, too, in 1971. My enjoyment didn't endure.

 

[tmtomh]

I was, too, in 1971. My enjoyment didn't endure.

Same here (except 1983 ).

 

[Front Row]

I also did this back in the 80's when I had a listening room. Now that I have a larger house with a room dedicated to music, I had the chance to set this up again. I wanted to start with a CD I knew very well so I put Sade's debut album into the transport. The sound stage in the room was fuller than before. I isolated the third speaker to discern if the sound was any different and it was. The front two speakers produced Sade's vocals above the music while third speaker had Sade's voice in a distant echo. I noticed other instruments were a bit more pronounced than the what the front speakers were producing. I changed CD's to 801 live and had similar results. I moved the third speaker to a variety of distances from the floor so the sound would compliment rather than compete with the front two speakers. I don't think this set up is for everyone but I enjoyed it decades ago and found it to be worthwhile again.

 

[Front Row]

Nice! How'd you actually end up hooking it all up? What did you listen to? What was it like?


Interesting, why do you say?

If you toe the L and R speakers in, to cross in front of your listening position, it might work even better. Jim

Th speakers were already "toed" and the third speaker was at the base of the "triangle." While listening in the triangle, I was impressed. Stepping out of the triangle, the stereo image did not disappear and the room had pleasant sound where ever I went.

 

[mhardy6647]

Th speakers were already "toed" and the third speaker was at the base of the "triangle." While listening in the triangle, I was impressed. Stepping out of the triangle, the stereo image did not disappear and the room had pleasant sound where ever I went.

I did that with my Duplexes for... quite a while, actually (and FWIW). I sat a few feet 'beyond' the focal point for the two coaxes' output.

image_1204 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[Pegwill]

Hi
I remember when this came about. It was explained to me that microphones and instruments were not always in phase with each other and therefore the effect varies from recoding to recording. As a good example is The Lovin’ Spoonfuls ‘ ‘You didn’t have to be so nice’ not sure how good it would be if you use a cd copy instead of vinyl If I remember right the theme from shaft is also good especially if you listen for the tambourine. Also if you have any quadraphonic recordings as these used an out of phase signal that can be played by a rear speaker. There is no doubt it is quite an eerie effect.

I never bothered with a resistor just connected the speakers across the positive terminals.

I also remember reading that some high quality classical recordings had all their microphones in phase. Of course there were some recordings where the main vocalist was out of phase deliberately.

Anyway I fully enjoyed it, may return to it later in the year.

Regards

 

[JimofMaine]

Did the OP find bliss with an Eno set up?

 

[Front Row]

I had the Hafler Circuit for about two months. Every once in a while I disengage the third speaker just to assess if I still like it. I notice the room sounds hollow when the third speaker is not in use. Thus I am keeping the Hafler Circuit.

 

[JimofMaine]

I had the Hafler Circuit for about two months. Every once in a while I disengage the third speaker just to assess if I still like it. I notice the room sounds hollow when the third speaker is not in use. Thus I am keeping the Hafler Circuit.

Agreed! Especially in damped rooms. How do you implement? Ever thought of using a separate amplifier with volume control? I've also been able increase compatibility with most recordings/soundtracks by crossing over around 500hz.

 

[Lord Bobbymort]

Did the OP find bliss with an Eno set up?

Haven't done anything yet. A lot of work to do on the house first before I can spend time doing that :/

 

[Front Row]

Agreed! Especially in damped rooms. How do you implement? Ever thought of using a separate amplifier with volume control? I've also been able increase compatibility with most recordings/soundtracks by crossing over around 500hz.

Right now I have Elac Adante AF61 as the left and right. The third speaker is a Energy book shelf speaker. I was considering getting another amp for the third speaker but grew concerned that signal might be out of time with the signal being sent to the Elacs.

 

[JimofMaine]

Right now I have Elac Adante AF61 as the left and right. The third speaker is a Energy book shelf speaker. I was considering getting another amp for the third speaker but grew concerned that signal might be out of time with the signal being sent to the Elacs.

No chance of analog ever being "out of time." (Electricity is at the speed of light.) Keep in mind you must use a line-level pre-out to implement another amplifier. So a Y-adaptor on your pre is needed. Then simply connect your (negatively grounded) amp's +,+ terminals to the third speaker. Depending on this amp's impedance, 2 rear speakers may work best. Amp's +'s to speaker positives and then a wire connecting the two speakers' negatives together. You can also find used Lexicon 8 pre-amps with 2 pre-outs with volume control for each out.

 

[doofusWog]

Curious about the haffler effect. Would this cook my NAD 3100 amp if I hook the two positives using a quadapter?

 

[Front Row]

Curious about the haffler effect. Would this cook my NAD 3100 amp if I hook the two positives using a quadapter?

There is an earlier post about protecting equipment. I would also do a search on the topic. You might want to experiment with a cheap amp.

 

[ferrellms]

I just watched a new video from Paul/PS Audio (

) regarding Brian Eno's suggestion to use a 3rd speaker connected to the positive terminals of your amp, placed behind, to play the uncommon audio from both channels, potentially playing audio not heard with a standard 2-speaker setup.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I'm really tempted to try it in my room, but need a bit of time around work and life to give it a shot.

I'm also wondering if there would then be any benefit to hooking up a 2nd speaker to the negative terminals. I'm guessing not in practice, but in theory there would be audio in both phase directions that are uncommon that would be played by having two speakers behind playing the positive and negative side separately.

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I had a Dynaco ST-80 that had this built-in. I ended up not using it due to the unpredictability and occasional odd-ball effect. The results are entirely program material dependent and not the least bit like true surround sound.

 

[Rodderly]

Delay would totally work, and is MUCH easier to do today than when the Hafler hookup first came out. Not sure about bandpassing, I'd have to mull that over a bit. Maybe remove some of the low end if things got muddy, but I don't recall that happening.

When I did this in the early 80's, I used a separate integrated amplifier so I could easily fine-tune the relative level with its volume control. Still it was definitely annoying to not get the proper volume dialed in until the song was halfway over, and this was listening to vinyl so immediately restarting the song, while feasible, was not recommeded.

The reason the volume setting varied so much from one track to the next was that the amount and loudness of the content reproduced by the secondary speakers depended on how the recording was mixed, and often changed from song to song, and even within the song. One song I remember in particular was "Fat Bottom Girls" by Queen. The secondary speakers very clearly and fairly loudly reproduced Brian May's isolated harmonizing vocals at the beginning of the song ("Aaaaaaaaaaah you gonna take me home tonight?"). Sometimes I'd turn the main speakers way down for that part just for fun. Brian May has a beautiful voice... but he just happened to be in the same band as Freddy Mercury!

One of the reasons I moved from the Hafler hookup to polydirectional speakers is that, with proper set-up, ime polydirectionals (including dipoles, bipoles, quasi-omnis, and omnis) can do a good job of conveying the venue's spatial cues with no need for fine-tuning from one mix to the next.

(Along the way I also tried the Carver Sonic Hologram Generator and a similiar device called the Omnisonic Imager, as well as with a DIY knock-off of the Polk Stereo Dimensional Array. All had their upsides and downsides.)

I currently use a technics SH-AV22.

It takes a line level left signal and subtracts the right signal rhen adds a delay and sends it to the left. You'll hear a bit of the left signal in the right channel anyway in normal stereo.

It does the same in reverse for the right signal.

Then it uses a Hafler passive setup to extract that added ambience with ta delay to rear speakers.

So yes delay works.

It's not a variable delay though it is a set delay but you can adjust the volume of the induced line level ambience which adjusts the volume of the rear speakers..

Anyway it's a good idea



Question:

All I want to know is what are the impedance issues with the halfer circuit. What does the connection across channels to derive a rear sound do to the impedance that set of speakers presents..or at the amplifier's output?

 

[Sal1950]

I had a Dynaco ST-80 that had this built-in. I ended up not using it due to the unpredictability and occasional odd-ball effect. The results are entirely program material dependent and not the least bit like true surround sound.

Really, did someone do some custom mod's to the amp for that?