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Bowers & Wilkins 805S Bookshelf Speaker Review

Yes, steeper crossover brings different problems and requires different compromises (nobody knows our sorrow... of us, loudspeaker designers), but I am confident it can result in a better loudspeaker overall.
 
Very well done and informative video.
The drivers, crossovers, cabinets construction and finishes of the 800 series are all top quality; The end products look is staggering in my opinion (also have a very big WAF). The sound philosophy on the other hand is not following the Harman guidelines and for sure in not on everyone's taste (me included).
 
What is B&W's logic and supposed advantage behind separating the tweeter into its own casing? Do they claim some performance benefit or is it strictly aesthetics/marketing?

One claim they make is lower high frequency distortion from isolating the tweeter from parasitic internal cabinet vibration. The tweeter tube is supposedly isolated with a little pad of Sorbothane.

I have a pair of B&W CM4s. They sound a lot like that graph looks. They do some things well, but the definitely have a smile response.
 
I had a pair of these, and thought them underwhelming. Interesting to see the measurements.
 
Here is Bowers explanation for this. Starting min 18:00


Makes it clear that they've got very solid engineering capabilities. With all of those resources, it seems unlikely that they're incapable of designing a loudspeaker with flat on axis and LW response. Surely the mid-range suckout is intentional, but why? Is it possible that B&W has private blind listening data that shows that such a midrange suckout is desirable?
 
Makes it clear that they've got very solid engineering capabilities. With all of those resources, it seems unlikely that they're incapable of designing a loudspeaker with flat on axis and LW response. Surely the mid-range suckout is intentional, but why? Is it possible that B&W has private blind listening data that shows that such a midrange suckout is desirable?
Well, people have mentioned that it might be a showroom win, so if these are sold mostly in stores during client listening then there could be something to that, but I don't know if that's how they sell most of them? You'd think the Harman research would be more valid, although thinking about it why would showroom listening be any different from Harman preferences - maybe something about short duration of showroom listening combined with less relaxed atmosphere.......I dunno.
 
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Makes it clear that they've got very solid engineering capabilities. With all of those resources, it seems unlikely that they're incapable of designing a loudspeaker with flat on axis and LW response. Surely the mid-range suckout is intentional, but why? Is it possible that B&W has private blind listening data that shows that such a midrange suckout is desirable?

It's been said already, but this response profile shows up well in showrooms. It's certainly more attention grabbing than objectively better measuring speakers.

I had a pair of 603s because they "wowed" me in the showroom. After living with them for a while I realized I'd always opt to listen to music through headphones instead. Now I sold the B&Ws and got a pair of Elac DBRs and I'm much more satisified.
 
It's been said already, but this response profile shows up well in showrooms. It's certainly more attention grabbing than objectively better measuring speakers.

I had a pair of 603s because they "wowed" me in the showroom. After living with them for a while I realized I'd always opt to listen to music through headphones instead. Now I sold the B&Ws and got a pair of Elac DBRs and I'm much more satisified.
The brand new 60X series have a better crossover, so I would like to see that measured to see if they now go for objectively good measurements.
 
When you listen at low levels this should sound appealing for many people as it is sort of a baked in loudness compensation. The highs would bother me at high levels though...
Quite, the "smiley face" frequency response has been proposed for domestic speakers as a good thing for decades since the vast majority of domestic users listen at home at levels way lower than their recordings were mastered at.
Not a big fan myself since I can listen loud but for people in apartments it makes sense.
 
I've owned several pairs of (budget end) B&W speakers, DM303, DM602.2, DM603.3 and 110i.

The signature sound is what I would describe as 'boom 'n tizz'. Lots of low bass and peaky (but clean top).

Just as per Amir's comment on one of the graphs. "Bright and a bit bassy"
 
These seem like a somewhat more sophisticated version of the classic "boom-tweet" school of loudspeaker design - the booming and tweeting are at least clean.
 
Quite, the "smiley face" frequency response has been proposed for domestic speakers as a good thing for decades since the vast majority of domestic users listen at home at levels way lower than their recordings were mastered at.
Not a big fan myself since I can listen loud but for people in apartments it makes sense.

I think this is a very interesting point. I have a pair of B&W 705s, probably from about the same era as the 805s's reviewed here. Based on the Stereophile review measurements (https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-705-loudspeaker-measurements), they seem to have frequency response similar to the earlier 805 Nautilus cited above in this thread, but like the Nautilus response curve posted above, there are still signs of some dips between 1 and about 3-4kHz.

Independently of the Stereophile measurements I have EQ applied (roughly, via an actual equalizer and an SPL meter) to give relatively smooth in-room response from my listening position. When I run SPL tests I do notice a 1-2dB dip in response at 1kHz, but nothing more than that, and no dip at 4kHz - in fact, for whatever reason my speakers have always read as up, not down, at 4kHz, even in a previous, very different listening room.

Subjectively, my impression always has been that these are clean-sounding speakers (low distortion from the drivers); and that some vocals are spookily present while occasionally on some recordings some of the vocals sound a little recessed (and if I didn't have that 1-2dB EQ boost at 1kHz maybe more vocals might sound recessed).

I also have always been impressed by how dynamic and pleasant the speakers are at relatively low listening volumes. I listen in the 75-85dB peak range usually, which is somewhat low by what I take to be typical stereo home enthusiast standards. And I imagine I listen at levels 15-30dB lower than most music is mastered at.

So I would not be surprised if even my roughly EQ'd setup, if measured using Spinorama, might show up as slightly smiley-faced (although again, my EQ is adjusted with the goal of linear in-room response), which could explain why the speakers seem to come to life nicely even at relatively low volume.
 
Nice. But isn’t this sort of like comparing a car & driver review of a 2003 Porsche 911 to a modern youtuber’s review of the same car 17 years later?

Uh, you do know car magazines review vintage cars all the time, right? And are you trolling Amir by suggesting a Kippel test is like a "youtuber's review"? I'm sorry, what's your point again?
 
I think this is a very interesting point. I have a pair of B&W 705s, probably from about the same era as the 805s's reviewed here. Based on the Stereophile review measurements (https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-705-loudspeaker-measurements), they seem to have frequency response similar to the earlier 805 Nautilus cited above in this thread, but like the Nautilus response curve posted above, there are still signs of some dips between 1 and about 3-4kHz.

Independently of the Stereophile measurements I have EQ applied (roughly, via an actual equalizer and an SPL meter) to give relatively smooth in-room response from my listening position. When I run SPL tests I do notice a 1-2dB dip in response at 1kHz, but nothing more than that, and no dip at 4kHz - in fact, for whatever reason my speakers have always read as up, not down, at 4kHz, even in a previous, very different listening room.

Subjectively, my impression always has been that these are clean-sounding speakers (low distortion from the drivers); and that some vocals are spookily present while occasionally on some recordings some of the vocals sound a little recessed (and if I didn't have that 1-2dB EQ boost at 1kHz maybe more vocals might sound recessed).

I also have always been impressed by how dynamic and pleasant the speakers are at relatively low listening volumes. I listen in the 75-85dB peak range usually, which is somewhat low by what I take to be typical stereo home enthusiast standards. And I imagine I listen at levels 15-30dB lower than most music is mastered at.

So I would not be surprised if even my roughly EQ'd setup, if measured using Spinorama, might show up as slightly smiley-faced (although again, my EQ is adjusted with the goal of linear in-room response), which could explain why the speakers seem to come to life nicely even at relatively low volume.

I had my CM4s EQd nicely in the room, and that made them good all around speakers that I thought sounded good enough to not need to look elsewhere. As you said, the driver quality, cabinet quality, and aesthetics are well above average. Improve upon the house sound, and you are good to go with B&W. Alas, one of the midbass drivers developed a voice coil rub after 20+ years of use.

I have been in several mix studios and a few mastering studios. Mixing is typically done at conversation levels for 90% of the process. The mastering that I have witnessed was done slightly louder, but not much louder. Certain passages were checked at louder volumes for short durations, but those engineers are very interested in preserving their hearing. I don't think Master Blaster is actually a thing.

My average listening level is around 75dB for music. I watch movies a bit louder--just loud enough to really feel the subs.

Uh, you do know car magazines review vintage cars all the time, right? And are you trolling Amir by suggesting a Kippel test is like a "youtuber's review"? I'm sorry, what's your point again?

Reviewing anything people have familiarity with is worth doing to set a baseline for a brand and range. The more the better.
 
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