Bowers & Wilkins 805S Bookshelf Speaker Review

[richard12511]

lol. Really? So our ears are exactly the same across 7B people on earth, eh? This is probably the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

Dude, even my wife and I, sitting in the same room hear things differently. While it’s too loud for her, it’s not loud enough for me, while it’s too bright for me, it’s not for her, etc.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

I think you missed his point.

 

[tuga]

Yeh, totally agree with that Don’t see it as contradictory to my point though.

Someone might prefer non-neutral reproduction, but it won’t be because it corrects the “flawed” transfer function through which their ears filter everything they hear (both live and reproduced).

Your point was right as usual. I was merely commenting on the need for neutrality when reproducing something which is fabricated.

 

[alexb997]

You make a very reasonable point: We all have our preferences, and we should go with the equipment we prefer, regardless of the measurements.

But that's also exactly what @PyramidElectric said above, in response to your initial comment about this.

So I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you about this fact that individual listening preference is important. Where the disagreement comes in, is when it comes to what individual preference means for other people, and for the validity or utility of measurements.

The problem with individual listening preferences is precisely what you say: we don't all hear exactly the same way; we don't all have the same exact preferences; we don't all weight the various trade-off factors the same; and we don't all listen in the same space. (Although it must be noted that extensive research has been done on subjective listening impressions, and some strong human preferences, internationally, have emerged about some aspects of speaker sound reproduction.)

What the existence of differing preferences means, though, is that your experience is valid for you, but literally meaningless for anyone else.

So if we believe in the value of basic human communication, and of information, then we need to ask if there is any objective information we can get about speakers (and other audio equipment) - and by "objective" is meant "something that can be communicated between us despite the fact that we're different people with different rooms and ears/brains."

The answer is Yes: measurements. And when we talk about measurements in audio, the obvious standard is fidelity: Low distortion, flat frequency response, and so on.

Now, you don't have to take such measurements as a simple guide to purchases, especially with speakers. But, for example, if Amir measures two different speakers and one has a lot more bass, you can be confident that the one that measures bassier is likely to sound more bassy. Regardless of which speaker measures flatter/more accurate, we can all come to a comparative conclusion that one has more bass. If one speaker has wider dispersion, that tells us that speaker will sound more consistent at different listening locations. Now, if you generally listen by yourself in a dedicated listening room, and you don't tend to get up and wander around much during your listening sessions, then the dispersion issue might not matter as much to you. So you don't have to get the wider-dispersion speaker just because of that measurement. But it gives you information that you - and, crucially, everyone else - can make some rational use of.

Finally, measurements can actually be even more useful when you combine them with your subjective listening experience. Back to those two hypothetical speakers: If you've actually heard one of them yourself, then Amir's measurements of the other speaker can give you a good idea about whether or not to include it on your audition list. If you heard Speaker A and found it lacking in bass, and Amir measures Speaker B to have more bass than Speaker A, then you might want to check out Speaker B - even if Speaker A measured flatter/better from a fidelity point of view.

As for Amir not having an anechoic chamber, and as for amplification, on those issues you are simply mistaken, as the Klippel measurement system takes room effects and amplification differences out of the equation. That's not an insult towards you - it's just a piece of information about how Amir's measurement system works.

I think both measurements and auditioning MUST go hand in hand.

Now, measurement of Amplifiers and DACs to me are MORE important, because it can be done more objectively and consistently, AND when auditioning, it's significantly harder to differentiate the differences between amps, specially ones in the same price range, family, type (like solid state, $1,000 amps). Hence, a clean power with good measurement most likely sounds better in the majority of the cases.

On the other hand, differences between speakers are HUGE, like a similar $1,000 speaker across brands can sound NIGHT AND DAY, it's extremely varies between speakers and it's quite noticeable, as they ALL are coloring the sound one way or another, it's a matter of taste much much more than measurements.

Lastly, speakers sound DIFFERENT in different rooms! While one works in your room, the other may not, REGARDLESS of measurement which cannot possibly be done without acoustic chamber despite what Klippel tries to do.

Bottom line, my advice after 20 years of buying various audio equipment, is that, NOTHING replaces auditioning the equipment in your room, and SPECIALLY speakers! You can buy an amp per review/measurements and it would be fine in your room, but before you buy a speaker PLEASE AUDITION IT... if I JUST relied on this "measurement of 805", I'd never bought the speakers that I have and enjoyed for a few years. They are BY FAR the BEST speakers I've ever owned and sounded the best TO ME when compared to everything else I auditioned.

 

[alexb997]

No, I don’t think you read my post correctly. I said more or less the opposite.

Our ears are different from everyone else’s but exactly the same as our own ears whether we listen to live or reproduced audio.

Ha?! My hearing has a dip in midrange, hence a speaker with a better midrange would sound nicer to me. While it maybe too much for you. So, your argument doesn't hold water. Same as ppl who have trouble hearing highs, may prefer harsher speakers, etc... You can never ever pick a speaker based on measurements ALONE!

 

[Sancus]

Wouldn't be a "no recommendation"(I didn't say bad because this didn't even GET a bad review) review without an owner coming out of the woodwork to spam the thread about how the reviews aren't valid.

 

[alexb997]

Have you guys EVER been to an audio show? or you're sitting behind your computer babbling? Have you ever been to a dealer with a friend? Literally EVERYONE has a different opinion about what sounds GOOD to THEM! It's 100% subjective when it comes to speakers. Same room, same equipment, same speakers, one hates it, one loves it!

Same goes with headphones! Some love headphone X, some HATE IT, some love headphone Y... while electronics gear is more consistent across the board.

 

[PyramidElectric]

Have you guys EVER been to an audio show? or you're sitting behind your computer babbling? Have you ever been to a dealer with a friend? Literally EVERYONE has a different opinion about what sounds GOOD to THEM! It's 100% subjective when it comes to speakers. Same room, same equipment, same speakers, one hates it, one loves it!

Same goes with headphones! Some love headphone X, some HATE IT, some love headphone Y... while electronics gear is more consistent across the board.

You've kind of hit the nail on the head, yep, without any measurements it's entirely subjective, and almost pointless talking about it. Once again this shouldn't affect anyone's enjoyment of whatever speaker, if it sounds like the best thing in the world to you then it is!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Ha?! My hearing has a dip in midrange, hence a speaker with a better midrange would sound nicer to me. While it maybe too much for you. So, your argument doesn't hold water. Same as ppl who have trouble hearing highs, may prefer harsher speakers, etc... You can never ever pick a speaker based on measurements ALONE!

Yes, I agree with you that different people may have different preferences.

But the point is this: every sound I hear, whether live or reproduced by a speaker, is filtered through my auditory system’s specific transfer function. An objectively neutral speaker will therefore sound subjectively neutral to me (as it will to you).

Whether that is to one’s preference or not is another question.

In other words, differences in preference may be the result of many factors, but differences in hearing are unlikely to be among them.

Re: your claim that a speaker can’t be chosen on measurements alone, I disagree, but that’s another discussion...

 

[tmtomh]

I understand the quest for neutrality for those who listen to documental-style classical music recordings.
But many, perhaps most, studio mixes are close-mic'ed in mono often with non-neutral mics, pan-potted and EQ'ed and distorted with all manner of effects; seeking neutral reproduction for rock/pop seems a bit futile...

But why would the coloration or processing applied to the recording have any impact on how neutral the listening equipment should be? In other words, if neutral equipment makes sense to capture the feel of a live classical concert hall performance, wouldn't neutral equipment also make sense to best capture whatever the artist, engineer, and producer were trying to do with all that EQ'ing, distortion, and effects? Why get playback equipment that adds more coloration - and the same coloration across the board - to all of the music?

 

[tuga]

But why would the coloration or processing applied to the recording have any impact on how neutral the listening equipment should be? In other words, if neutral equipment makes sense to capture the feel of a live classical concert hall performance, wouldn't neutral equipment also make sense to best capture whatever the artist, engineer, and producer were trying to do with all that EQ'ing, distortion, and effects? Why get playback equipment that adds more coloration - and the same coloration across the board - to all of the music?

Because one might like it.
For example the wider soundstage and more enveloping spaciousness of wide-directivity speakers in untreated rooms, or the time-delayed signal-correlated distortions from vinyl playback, good old analogue "warmth" or even tape hiss, the more distant perspective of a BBC dip, the "darker" and more forgiving sound of a treble roll-off, etc.
Anything that may produce a presentation which increases the enjoyment of one's listening experience. This is of course a matter of personal taste and in some cases it may have to do with listening habits (older audiophiles having grown up listening to a particular type of presentation which they still prefer).

 

[q3cpma]

Because one might like it.
For example the wider soundstage and more enveloping spaciousness of wide-directivity speakers in untreated rooms, or the time-delayed signal-correlated distortions from vinyl playback, good old analogue "warmth" or even tape hiss, the more distant perspective of a BBC dip, the "darker" and more forgiving sound of a treble roll-off, etc.
Anything that may produce a presentation which increases the enjoyment of one's listening experience. This is of course a matter of personal taste and in some cases it may have to do with listening habits (older audiophiles having grown up listening to a particular type of presentation which they still prefer).

But then you're going from audio reproduction to make-believe "art". If that's "the right thing to do" is another question, but that's certainly not accuracy; and I'm sure that if you want the best average sound over a wide range of recordings, neutral reproduction is the only way to go.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Bottom line, my advice after 20 years of buying various audio equipment, is that, NOTHING replaces auditioning the equipment in your room, and SPECIALLY speakers! You can buy an amp per review/measurements and it would be fine in your room, but before you buy a speaker PLEASE AUDITION IT... if I JUST relied on this "measurement of 805", I'd never bought the speakers that I have and enjoyed for a few years. They are BY FAR the BEST speakers I've ever owned and sounded the best TO ME when compared to everything else I auditioned.

But if you actually measured speakers in your room, and/or have seen measurements of a couple of speakers you own, this can actually guide you towards speakers you are likely to enjoy. Measurements are quite predictive of how the speaker will sound (not surprisingly, since that's what is measured). If I measure a speaker before listening to it, I can predict pretty accurately how it will sound with music by looking at the results. This is obviously especially true for the general response (amount of bass, overall frequency slope, etc). So while by no means a perfect substitute of having the speakers in your room, these responses graphs are pretty informative when you learn what to look for.

 

[tuga]

But then you're going from audio reproduction to make-believe "art". If that's "the right thing to do" is another question, but that's certainly not accuracy; and I'm sure that if you want the best average sound over a wide range of recordings, neutral reproduction is the only way to go.

Studio productions are make believe "art". Even quite a few classical music recordings are make-believe "art" (f.e. Reference Recordings, 2L).

I prefer accuracy because that's what gives me the best listening experience but understand those who do not, who prefer a "spiced" or "customised" presentation with warts and all (because there are negative side-effects to euphonic distortions, of different magnitude and impact it must be said).

On the other hand, as a casual TV viewer I couldn't care less if the white balance and contrast and saturation and sharpness of our 720p 24" budget TV is not accurate. I suppose that this is how most casual (non-audiophile) listeners look at (high-fidelity) sound reproduction and why they're happy with mp3, youtube and a bluetooth speaker or el-cheapo headphones.

It's only audiophiles, and not all of them (half perhaps), that are obssessing with accurate reproduction of the recorded signal.
This makes me wonder if there's really a need or purpose for measuring entry-level active speakers since those more likely to buy them won't give a thought to whether or not they're accurate reproducers...

 

[q3cpma]

Studio productions are make believe "art". Even quite a few classical music recordings are make-believe "art" (f.e. Reference Recordings, 2L).

Well, but that's their job.

I prefer accuracy because that's what gives me the best listening experience but understand those who do not, who prefer a "spiced" or "customised" presentation with warts and all (because there are negative side-effects to euphonic distortions, of different magnitude and impact it must be said).

Personally, I don't. The problem is that people who say they dislike the sound of neutral speaker just don't make sense: it can only mean they dislike the sound of the music played through these speakers (minus the circle of confusion, let us not go there). In their place, I'd just listen to better sounding music then, and wouldn't try to correct all the recordings in the world with a failure I want to convince myself is better because I worked for it.

It's only audiophiles, and not all of them (half perhaps), that are obssessing with accurate reproduction of the recorded signal.

In a sense, the people wanting to customize their sound are the ones obssessing over nothing, not people just wanting a neutral system so they can focus on finding good recordings. To me, "audiophiles" is a third group of people having a mental case of materialism and feeding their brain some happy-drugs by buying always more and bigger and rarer; basically some terminal special snowflakes with money.

This makes me wonder if there's really a need or purpose for measuring entry-level active speakers since those more likely to buy them won't give a thought to whether or not they're accurate reproducers...

Well, these reviews are clearly for the small population wanting the best compromise.

 

[tuga]

Personally, I don't. The problem is that people who say they dislike the sound of neutral speaker just don't make sense: it can only mean they dislike the sound of the music played through these speakers (minus the circle of confusion, let us not go there). In their place, I'd just listen to better sounding music then, and wouldn't try to correct all the recordings in the world with a failure I want to convince myself is better because I worked for it.

I will take better music over better-sounding music/recordings (f.e. a mono recording of Billie Holiday over an audiophile production of Madeleine Peyroux).

In any case, if people are customising their playback because they like that kind of presentation then there's no need for any convincing. If someone prefers Zu "excitement" over Revel "accurateness" who am I to question it. The ultimate goal of a playback system is to provide listening enjoyment to its owner/user.

 

[tuga]

In a sense, the people wanting to customize their sound are the ones obssessing over nothing, not people just wanting a neutral system so they can focus on finding good recordings. To me, "audiophiles" is a third group of people having a mental case of materialism and feeding their brain some happy-drugs by buying always more and bigger and rarer; basically some terminal special snowflakes with money.

Audiophilia is a hobby and as in any other hobbies there's a degree of OCD and rampant consumerism involved.
Audiophiles are interested in sound and they're also gearheads.

The Oxford Dictionary describes "gearhead" as "A person who is very enthusiastic about new gadgets."
The first example sentence perfectly illustrates my point: ‘He is also a certified hi-fi nut, gearhead, and gadget freak.’

 

[q3cpma]

I will take better music over better-sounding music/recordings (f.e. a mono recording of Billie Holiday over an audiophile production of Madeleine Peyroux).

I simply don't dissociate music and production in my choice, even if weigh them differently. Production can incredibly enhance music, in my opinion; for example, I found that the very clear production of pop albums like David Bowie's The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars really makes it more than what the composition has.
It can also be an artistic choice (i.e. part of the music) like in extreme metal, new wave or more obscure stuff like noise or no wave.

In any case, if people are customising their playback because they like that kind of presentation then there's no need for any convincing. If someone prefers Zu "excitement" over Revel "accurateness" who am I to question it. The ultimate goal of a playback system is to provide listening enjoyment to its owner/user.

As I already said, that's an opinion not everybody share. I view people listening to speakers instead of music as something akin to neurosis.

(mind you, I'm not talking about the regular Joe who likes his pair of Bose or Klipsch)

 

[tecnogadget]

Hmm, you know, sometimes I wonder why some folks have issues with these sorts of reviews and I now know why. I OWN these speakers, and while that would naturally make me biased, I did pick these after searching for MONTHS and auditioning dozens and dozens of speakers, including their lager sibling 804!

Measurements alone, albeit these actually measure OK, can't tell the whole story, SPECIALLY for a speaker. 805s NEED good amplification, so I have no idea what amplification is used to do the test, BUT these things with a pair of Classe' amps, on its own stand, absolutely CRUSHED any other bookshelf speakers I've ever listened to, including the ones I directly compared in the same room! It wasn't even close! The amount of bass out of these bookshelves SHAME many tower speakers, and they can surely sing a great tune.

Questions for Amir:
- Did you use the B&W Speaker stands? If not, how were they mounted?
- What amplification is used to test?
- Which bookshelf speaker, regardless of price, could match these in both low and high end of spectrum

Moral of the story, read and know the measurements BUT TRUST your ears! Anyone reading these measurements and thinking these speakers are meh, are sadly mistaken. Have a listen and compare to similarly priced/sized speakers and you'd be blown away! NOTHING replaces auditioning with similar equipment you own, and specially auditioning at home (in your room) that some dealers allow. What I did, I took my amp to the dealer and listened to various speakers, THEN brought it home and made sure it works in my setting. I suggest most do the same specially buying expensive pair of speakers!

Are you really trying to fit in the typical “get better amplification” BS to a purely Objective forum ??
An amp is an amp and thats it. It either amplifies the signal cleanly with enough power or not, two well engineered amps will sound the same.

A pair of speaker thats not well engineered wont be fixed by any amp. EQ / PEQ / RoomEQ could fix some issues if Directivity Index is good enough, but it has its limits.

You claim this X bookshelf annihilates any other one you have auditioned, fine, thats your subjective claim and you own truth, it works for you and I won’t question it. But this way of thinking won’t work for any objectivist who cares about truthful audio reproduction and the science behind.

 

[Geert]

Literally EVERYONE has a different opinion about what sounds GOOD to THEM! It's 100% subjective when it comes to speakers. Same room, same equipment, same speakers, one hates it, one loves it!

Not true. Read Floyd Toole.

 

[tuga]

Not true. Read Floyd Toole.

To read Toole's opinion?