Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

[mtmpenn]

I think we have to conclude that experienced insiders and trained listeners grow to prefer flat-measuring speakers, but mass-market consumers in general don't really care.

I don’t know. These are not expensive speakers, in the world of Hi-Fi, but in 2021 who buys $700 in speakers and doesn’t care what they sound like? All of my friends have either nothing, a sound bar or a Bluetooth speaker. Maybe I don’t travel in the right circle but it seems to me like only enthusiasts are buying speakers that require an amp or receiver today. I guess there is a pretty wide range of what it means to be an enthusiast but still...

 

[Helicopter]

I don’t know. These are not expensive speakers, in the world of Hi-Fi, but in 2021 who buys $700 in speakers and doesn’t care what they sound like? All of my friends have either nothing, a sound bar or a Bluetooth speaker. Maybe I don’t travel in the right circle but it seems to me like only enthusiasts are buying speakers that require an amp or receiver today. I guess there is a pretty wide range of what it means to be an enthusiast but still...

I know several people who dropped a few grand or more on home theaters and none of them know much more than the average consumer about speakers.

 

[Inner Space]

I don’t know. These are not expensive speakers, in the world of Hi-Fi, but in 2021 who buys $700 in speakers and doesn’t care what they sound like? All of my friends have either nothing, a sound bar or a Bluetooth speaker. Maybe I don’t travel in the right circle but it seems to me like only enthusiasts are buying speakers that require an amp or receiver today. I guess there is a pretty wide range of what it means to be an enthusiast but still...

I guess I meant they don't value flat FR per se, as opposed to other perceived attributes. But your question is a good one. Sound bars now are probably a better choice for the not-very-interested, compared to $700 speakers - one of which often ends up sideways on top of a bookcase, and the other behind the sofa.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I know several people who dropped a few grand or more on home theaters and none of them know much more than the average consumer about speakers.

If you watched Amir's video about testing in mono, you would understand why.

 

[preload]

I have quite recently finished the upgrade of 802 D2. I have to admit that the original loudspeakers did not sound as bad as it may seem from the measurements, thanks to large and very well acoustically treated room and powerful amplifiers. But anyway, overall sound was somehow not coherent, not soundind as one speaker, and very picky on genres. For me, after the years in this hobby, these are signs of not neutral and not well executed loudspeaker.

FST midrange, Diamond tweeter, cabinets,....it all is top notch and a lot of development clearly went into these. But their combination does not fit together.

Interesting. I've had a pair of 802D1's for the past 10 yrs or so. They were originally placed in a non-ideal room/mlp and the soundstage was just ok. I eventually moved them into a larger room and the improvement was substantial. Compared to genelec 8351b's and m126be's set up in a different room, there's just no comparison. The 3d realism of vocals is insanely good. I regularly react with "Holy xxxx" when I'm listening. Whereas with the other speakers mentioned, they sound good and that's it. A MMM measurement of the B&W's shows the presence of a BBC dip and a gentle treble hump. Whereas the Genelec/m126be curves look textbook flat.

 

[PKAudio]

There is one aspect that is not directly visible or obvious from the measurements, and it is phase matching of midrange and tweeter at Fcrossover, but very importantly, also below and above Fc. Original 802D2 crossover contains only one capacitor in tweeter crossover. This is common for the most of BW loudspeakers. Nothing against it, it works, at least somehow. But in my view this alignment is suboptimal and does not lead to proper drivers summation in crossover area. What exactly happens can be seen in the image below. midrange and tweeter phase slopes (the right graph) are very different, they intersect at Fc, but get apart very quick off the Fc. Due to single capacitor at tweeter crossover, tweeter acoustic response is only -15dB at 1kHz, but phase difference between midrange and tweeter at that frequency is ~180deg, so they play against each other. Same happens on the other side of crossover.

 

[Mart68]

Interesting, with two caveats: what else was the designer going to say? "It's because I'm an idiot" would take some courage. And, more widely, imagine the stress involved, where technical satisfaction lies in one direction, and profit lies in another. Which it often does, in the real world. A bit like Blue Jeans Cable and their new "audiophile" line. Again, it takes courage to leave money on the table, in favor of principle.

Don't understand this. The sole purpose of a business is to make money for their shareholders. If the marketing department says to the designer 'This formula is selling, we want more of the same' then that's what the designer is going to provide. Principles are all very well but if I had a good job designing speakers for B&W I wouldn't pick the principle of flat frequency response as my hill to die on.

 

[Mnyb]

Great question. I think we have to conclude that experienced insiders and trained listeners grow to prefer flat-measuring speakers, but mass-market consumers in general don't really care. My rule of thumb is to watch friends, neighbors and relatives ... their choices are often inexplicable. As are mine, no doubt, in their own specialist areas.

I think this is related to the so called "circle of confusion" but given the loudnesswar music of lately it looks more like two people tugging a rope at each end in freefall

What is correct tonality when the music can be mixed and mastered in any way imaginable ? Professional people wants to at least try to anchor the rope at one end in reality, that means flat .
Consumer might think its sounds fine to me with my limited set of Norah Jones records and Jazz at the pawnshop
And elevated highs give a fake sense of detail and space who might not even be there in the recording but how are you to know ?
Hifi is supposed to sound detailed the reviewer tells us this are they not and with huge soundstage .

The whole point is to make consumer speakers and pro speakers more close in tonality. (there are also bad pro speakers they are equally confused )
And also by controlled directivity make them less room dependent .

Then we at home may actually here something that's not totally different from what they heard when mixing.

As it is now its a crap shot at either end .

My experience over time has been when your music taste widens you tend to like flatter more neutral speakers that are almost dull at the first listen.
The super spacius and super detailed sound is special effect imho, its cool but it should be in the music production and not built into the speaker.

In the current situation would any one recognize the perfect speaker if it bit you in the behind ? not many of us I think.
But we must accept the recordings as they are and not try to compensate a subset of them with gear use EQ for those situations instead and buy neutral gear , that's a win win for us .

 

[respice finem]

I am curious how much pressure may build up in a few years, especially in the segment of "bread-and-butter" passive speakers. Many "technically "literate" buyers are already switching to active monitors with waveguides. Considering "life" is already today more on the Internet than in "brick and mortar" dealerships, it might become quite a lot of pressure.

 

[danielkt]

Great question. I think we have to conclude that experienced insiders and trained listeners grow to prefer flat-measuring speakers, but mass-market consumers in general don't really care. My rule of thumb is to watch friends, neighbors and relatives ... their choices are often inexplicable. As are mine, no doubt, in their own specialist areas.

True..
In designing product I think there is 2 approach :
1. Make it what market like / want
2. S jobs approach : i know better what it should like, you / market know nothing.

Both approach could be successful to make $$, but i think the second would be harder.

Do you know the original master recording or voice? Do you like the original vocal of a singer?
Could be yes or no. Maybe a lot of listener don't and maybe they like "colour" more than the original.
I don't know & wonder if there is study about this.

 

[welsh]

I came here to mention the very same thing.

The response looks just like the 'BBC dip'.

I'm surprised more people are not aware of this.

I prefer BBQ dip...

 

[MZKM]

I prefer BBQ dip...

I picked up a used smoker recently and have been having fun:

Not bad for my first try at smoked ribs (the temp controller is a bit wonky, so I did have a small issue and hence why they are a tad charred).

Smoked salmon is delicious.

 

[puppet]

So is smoked chicken ... carp ... sturgeon ... martini's ...

 

[Jim85IROC]

I've listened to a lot of 800-series B&Ws over the years, and although I've always felt their sound was anything but neutral, I never found them to be objectionably bright. I think it's because I've always auditioned them in very large, very well treated rooms. In that environment, the lack of reflection tames their highs. The coloration that I was most aware if in all but the 805Ds was a midrange bump that made the vocals sound forward and unnatural.

But for their flaws, they still do an awful lot right. In a large room at higher volumes, I find them immensely impressive. If I had the cash and a room suitable for them, I wouldn't hesitate to get a pair. I'd probably end up reworking the crossovers, but for all I know, the colored sound is what makes them so impressive in the first place.

 

[thewas]

NRC Measurements of the Bowers & Wilkins 705 Signature Loudspeakers were just added, no real surprises:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...05-signature-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153

And the corresponding review text also with comparisons to the Revel M126Be
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/inde...526-bowers-wilkins-705-signature-loudspeakers

 

[Dennis Murphy]

NRC Measurements of the Bowers & Wilkins 705 Signature Loudspeakers were just added, no real surprises:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...05-signature-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153

And the corresponding review text also with comparisons to the Revel M126Be
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/inde...526-bowers-wilkins-705-signature-loudspeakers

"The sound of the cymbals through both speakers was like fine sand sifting through my fingers—but with the Revels, the figurative grains were even finer."

This is why we need ASR. Or most any other reviewer on the planet.

 

[respice finem]

Yes the good old reviewer lyric And anyone, in any subjective review, might have heard what he wrote, because hearing...
That's why I trust measurements over subjective assessment any day.

 

[richard12511]

NRC Measurements of the Bowers & Wilkins 705 Signature Loudspeakers were just added, no real surprises:
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...05-signature-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153

And the corresponding review text also with comparisons to the Revel M126Be
https://www.soundstagehifi.com/inde...526-bowers-wilkins-705-signature-loudspeakers

Kinda sounds like he slightly preferred the B&W overall.

 

[ta240]

Don't understand this. The sole purpose of a business is to make money for their shareholders. If the marketing department says to the designer 'This formula is selling, we want more of the same' then that's what the designer is going to provide. Principles are all very well but if I had a good job designing speakers for B&W I wouldn't pick the principle of flat frequency response as my hill to die on.

Especially since they get glowing reviews both from professional informercial hosts and from consumers. Even if you wanted to, how do you argue with your boss that the popular speakers that you are making should sound different and more money should be spent on R&D for them. There are already competing speakers with flatter response so how do you re-educate your customers that like your speakers to no longer like them and like your new flatter ones?

 

[Sonny1]

"The sound of the cymbals through both speakers was like fine sand sifting through my fingers—but with the Revels, the figurative grains were even finer."

This is why we need ASR. Or most any other reviewer on the planet.

Let me give it a shot. It sounded like fine sand being shoved into my ears. The Revel sand had finer grains with a dash of moisture - to pack it in nicely. The B&W was course grained, dry, and I think it had some gravel mixed in. Need to find a Q-Tip.