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Bowers & Wilkins 607 S2 Anniversary Edition Review

preload

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But how many of you are actually using measurements here? disassembles the switch, measures each component and measures the actual resonance of the parts and so on? conjecture will remain conjecture, and yet it is about truth and sound. Not about marketing and idea. It is difficult to connect and come to a conclusion, but it is certain that every B&W speaker can be improved, they are really catastrophic in terms of reality and its approach.

To, čo hovoríte, nemá absolútne zmysel, ak je preložené do angličtiny.
 

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My bad, it was 2 other B&W speakers he took apart and found 5 cent parts. He said the particle board on one, 602 s2-$600/pair, was so thin and bad that it had a bunch of voids in it. It was a $600 speaker when new and of course got rave reviews from What Hi-Fi. B&W is all marketing and cozy relationships with the audio press.

You can't draw conclusions about a speaker's performance based on how much the parts cost. There's another thread on ASR with disassembly photos, where they took apart a $7000/pair loudspeaker, and found that the drivers had paper cones, the wiring was cheap, the tuned port looked like it was made using some plastic mold, and the enclosure used thin aluminum. That was the Genelec 8351B.
 

lherrm

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You can't draw conclusions about a speaker's performance based on how much the parts cost. There's another thread on ASR with disassembly photos, where they took apart a $7000/pair loudspeaker, and found that the drivers had paper cones, the wiring was cheap, the tuned port looked like it was made using some plastic mold, and the enclosure used thin aluminum. That was the Genelec 8351B.
It happened here and there , but :
- how is the wiring cheap ?
- what's wrong with paper cone ? ( a few threads about driver material here, and paper is not supposed to be "bad")
- same with tuned port made from plastic ?
- same with the "thin"(?) aluminium enclosure ?
 
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preload

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It happened here and there , but :
- how is the wiring cheap ?
- what's wrong with paper cone ? ( a few threads about driver material here, and paper is not supposed to be "bad")
- same with tuned port made from plastic ?
- same with the "thin"(?) aluminium enclosure ?
Nothing is wrong with any of this. I mean Bose speakers use similar materials.
 

TrevC

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My bad, it was 2 other B&W speakers he took apart and found 5 cent parts. He said the particle board on one, 602 s2-$600/pair, was so thin and bad that it had a bunch of voids in it. It was a $600 speaker when new and of course got rave reviews from What Hi-Fi. B&W is all marketing and cozy relationships with the audio press.
Danny frequently changes the crossover in order to correct bad frequency response. I thought that was something people on this site thought was important.
He also will make changes to the crossover to improve the impedence. He did a crossover change to a Magnepan to bring up the impedence from 1.9 to 4.4. I'm sure many amplifiers will think that is important.

Could you provide links to these videos? Thanks.
 

beagleman

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He doesn't just swap out cheap parts for expensive parts. There is some design work involved.
He tests the speaker and if it measures poorly, he will do a crossover redesign in order to correct the frequency response and he also makes changes to correct impedence problems. He thinks the higher quality parts make even further improvements and everything I've read from his customers is that they agree. Many claim night and day difference and are very happy with the couple hundred dollar investment.



But, he implies that expensive parts make some huge difference.

Contrary to what he says and thinks, most speaker engineers be it retail or many Great DIY designers, do not agree.

He is trying to get people to buy stuff to make money. Yes he seems to be a great guy, very friendly and knows his stuff, but at the end of the day, he is a salesman. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to take some of his comments and factor that in.
 

FeddyLost

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The Circle of Confusion comes from Floyd Toole and Sean Olive - you heard of them?
For sure. But i'd say that this CoC tells us more about making new records in some genre sounding more or less close to familiar and commercially successfull ones. Even if some sound engineer personally prefer some another sound and find resulting mix/master suboptimal from ultimate fidelity point of view.
Very improbable that really competent and experienced sound engineer will constantly sincerely and ignorantly make wrong decisions that will lead to great tracks.
It's more like "movie presentation". Directors, producers and editors will make movie pictures according their creative vision and public common sense, but they will do it concsiously and with properly calibrated monitors. I think that barely any movie studio will release depressive noir or dark thriller colored like teenage comedy just due to wrong ICC profile applied.

For some example, we can just read something about Bob Katz's Studio A.
All five speakers are augmented with two subwoofers–JL Audio 12″ Fathom F112 subwoofers crossed over with a steep linear phase Neville Thiele Crossover. The mating of satellites and subs is seamless and perfectly calibrated by use of Acourate loudspeaker and room correction software from AudioVero. Acourate corrects phase, impulse response and time alignment. Response is +/- 1 dB to a target from 17 Hz to 20 kHz.

Good sound engineer must know sound of real instruments and all frequency bands and I hope he never "just come into some assembled studio and try to make some mix sound right". Otherwise all the chanses of keeping sound "realistic" is kind of lottery, and we still see a lot of classic/acoustic albums with consistently "correct" sound.
Anyway,it might be just my opinion, but I feel better if some actions done have some rational reasons behind them. Even if it's greed, lazyness, cruelty but not just ignorance, because fight with ignorant solutions is futile and unpredictable.
Top B&W speakers is absolutely reasonable solution for british studio, because they have low distortion, very well engineered, can withstand a lot of power applied and can be repaired locally if needed. Question about sound at LP is still open, and. unfortunately, I don't have any access for Abbey Road staff.

Take a look at all the B&W loudspeakers they use in the mastering rooms at Abbey Road Studios. Be sure and contact them to tell them how "ignorant" and "inexcusable" (your words) are, and perhaps you can teach them how to properly set up their studio.
Loudspeakers is just one part of the puzzle. Then you have source, amplification, room, equalisation and current SPL at listening point. Only then you'll have some audial experience transfer function that must be kept in mind while you apply some changes to track.
Easiest example is Fletcher-Munson curve - if you don't really know how loud this track is playing now and how loud it will be reproduced (i.e. is it intended for FM radio, for home hifi or for dance floor) you can't really decide, if you need to add some lows or not.

1) Since B&W's are often used in mastering studios, and adjustments are made to the recording based on the curves and "tonality" of B&W speakers, there is definitely merit to using B&W speakers at home to attempt to reproduce what the recording engineer intended.
Returning to previous point, I'd say that one shall not substitute 802Ds + Bryston ( and possible tri-amping) in treated control room with some entry level BWs + same class receiver in domestic room just due to typical on-axis tonality of brand. Even if 802Ds are not equalised to some other curve, which is still unknown for me.
 

preload

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For some example, we can just read something about Bob Katz's Studio A.
All five speakers are augmented with two subwoofers–JL Audio 12″ Fathom F112 subwoofers crossed over with a steep linear phase Neville Thiele Crossover. The mating of satellites and subs is seamless and perfectly calibrated by use of Acourate loudspeaker and room correction software from AudioVero. Acourate corrects phase, impulse response and time alignment. Response is +/- 1 dB to a target from 17 Hz to 20 kHz.


The problem is that there's no consensus on the ideal room correction target, particular as it is used in room correction algorithms. It's been studied.

Top B&W speakers is absolutely reasonable solution for british studio, because they have low distortion, very well engineered, can withstand a lot of power applied and can be repaired locally if needed.

"Top B&W speakers" are also a reasonable solution for an "American" studio. For instance, Skywalker Sound, perhaps you're familiar with their work.

Loudspeakers is just one part of the puzzle. Then you have source, amplification, room, equalisation and current SPL at listening point. Only then you'll have some audial experience transfer function that must be kept in mind while you apply some changes to track.

I would clarify that to read: loudspeakers in the mastering process are a critical step in the cycle. The room is also extremely important.

Returning to previous point, I'd say that one shall not substitute 802Ds + Bryston ( and possible tri-amping) in treated control room with some entry level BWs + same class receiver in domestic room just due to typical on-axis tonality of brand. Even if 802Ds are not equalised to some other curve, which is still unknown for me.

I completely agree. I don't think the 600-series speakers, including the one Amir reviewed here, are that great. Maybe for surround speakers... :)

If people have heard the 800-series floorstanders and hate them, that's one thing. But if you've only heard the "consumer/entry-level" 600-series, and you think that generalizes to the rest of B&W's product line, then you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how companies work.
 

dfuller

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Could you provide links to these videos? Thanks.
In here. You can see how thin and crappy the cabinetry is on it. Cabinets don't really matter as long as they're "inert enough" but this is not what I would consider "inert enough" at all. There's an ATC in here as well (I believe the updated version of the one Amir measured, actually...) which I would consider "inert enough" for the cabinet to not have a huge impact.
You can't draw conclusions about a speaker's performance based on how much the parts cost. There's another thread on ASR with disassembly photos, where they took apart a $7000/pair loudspeaker, and found that the drivers had paper cones, the wiring was cheap, the tuned port looked like it was made using some plastic mold, and the enclosure used thin aluminum. That was the Genelec 8351B.
Aluminum is much denser and quite a bit stiffer than MDF so it can be thinner and doesn't need as much internal bracing (plus stiffening elements can be cast in, unlike MDF) so that one's a bit of a red herring. Otherwise you're right on the money. Component cost matters much less than overall integration.
 

richard12511

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It happened here and there , but :
- how is the wiring cheap ?
- what's wrong with paper cone ? ( a few threads about driver material here, and paper is not supposed to be "bad")
- same with tuned port made from plastic ?
- same with the "thin"(?) aluminium enclosure ?

I can agree that it "looks cheap", but the materials are definitely not. Paper was chosen simply because it's the best material for the job, and everything is custom designed for that monitor, most notably the SOTA coax unit. I'm guessing that the R&D required for this speaker and all of it's custom drivers was not cheap. Thin cast aluminum is also about as good as it gets in terms of performance, but too costly for most manufacturers(see Rockport and Magico for SOTA cast aluminum). Much better than typical MDF imo. Wire is whatever, like I said about the "cheap" looking B&W wires, I'd rather they not waste money(and pass those costs on to me) on items that make zero difference.

I think it looks cheap at first glance, but it's clear on further inspection that it's actually more akin to a cost no object SOTA design for the price.
 

richard12511

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My bad, it was 2 other B&W speakers he took apart and found 5 cent parts. He said the particle board on one, 602 s2-$600/pair, was so thin and bad that it had a bunch of voids in it. It was a $600 speaker when new and of course got rave reviews from What Hi-Fi. B&W is all marketing and cozy relationships with the audio press.
Danny frequently changes the crossover in order to correct bad frequency response. I thought that was something people on this site thought was important.
He also will make changes to the crossover to improve the impedence. He did a crossover change to a Magnepan to bring up the impedence from 1.9 to 4.4. I'm sure many amplifiers will think that is important.

I don't think many here believe that a better crossover doesn't help a speaker sound better. Danny really does make most speakers he upgrades perform better, but he does it by redesigning the crossover and improving the internal bracing, not by using more expensive resistors and caps. I think where we take issue is in how he ramps up the end price to consumer by "upgrading" to expensive resistors, wires and caps that make no audible difference. See @ctrl's excellent series covering the audibility of such "upgrades" Part 1, Part 2, Part 3. He could get the exact same performance increase that he does by simply redesigning the crossover and using normal working parts. That wouldn't allow him to charge the premium he does, though, which is why he adds those "premium" cables, caps, etc.
 

zajogungster

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[QUOTE = "preload, post: 820141, member: 16063"] To, čo hovoríte, nemá jedinečný zmysel, ak je preložené do angličtiny. [/ QUOTE]

je možné. Musíte byť čítaní s porozumením.
často sa stáva, že to, čo prístroje merajú, to uši a mozog vyhodnotia úplne inak. Preto je debata o tom, že niekto uprednostňuje svoj sluch pred meraním, asi dosť zbytočná.
 

Ageve

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In here. You can see how thin and crappy the cabinetry is on it.

That speaker is 22 years old, but it performs better than 607 S2.
https://audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2624

"Notice that the tweeter response is quite smooth. The woofer that is out of phase with the tweeter at this point causes the sharp system response dip at 6kHz.
...
Second-harmonic distortion was below 1% over most of the audible frequency range. Below 100Hz second-harmonic distortion did rise to 1.3%, but this is still a very low figure. Third-harmonic distortion was 0.7% or less. This is an excellent result.
...
IM products appeared at 6.4, 9.1, and 10.4kHz at a level of 0.07%, the lowest figure I have measured so far in the series of tests.
...
These speakers are a great example of good engineering. Given their size and price, they get the basics right without trying to reach for the sky."


The crossover is visible in the Youtube video. Again, there's nothing wrong with those components. The thin particle board cabinet is far from ideal, but it was common back then.

I should also add that I didn't really like these speakers. They were lacking in imaging and the treble was rather "sharp".

Skärmavbild 2021-06-19 kl. 10.11.04.png

Skärmavbild 2021-06-19 kl. 10.12.43.png
 

DSJR

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Thanks for asking for clarity. What I'm hoping to illustrate is that:
1) Since B&W's are often used in mastering studios, and adjustments are made to the recording based on the curves and "tonality" of B&W speakers, there is definitely merit to using B&W speakers at home to attempt to reproduce what the recording engineer intended.
2) The Circle of Confusion is a major problem that prevents loudspeaker measurements from being able to reliably predict blinded listening preferences. This is to address the misconception here that a loudspeaker's sound quality can be interpreted simply by staring at measurement charts.

An old friend of mine was a masteriung engineer for many years until Polygram (as was) closed the autonomous record company and integrated the label plus it's vaults of recordings into a more centralised storage facility (hopefully better looked after than the Universal vaults) some time back. He and his colleagues used B&W 801's, then M801's (which should show how long ago this was). I was given to understand the presence of these speakers were more a promotional product-placement thing in actual fact but back in the late 70's and for monitoring of primarily 'classical' material, Tannoys in Lockwood cabinets were judged increasingly coloured and 801's were in a different league back then. he learned very early on never to master a recording to 'sound good via his 801's' as it wouldn't translate to more usual speakers domestically. Instead, he learned to use them as a tool to hear the recording through and usually mastered as 'flat' as he could - worked too for the recordings he played me. A colleague did a load of 'pop' (his words) compilations and early on used NS1000's as monitors. Apparently this guy eq'd everything but again, the end result usually sounded ok to me...

So, I'd suggest that mixing and mastering engineers 'learn' the character of the monitors they most often use and 'hear through them' automatically I feel.

Do please be aware that some domestic speakers do change over twenty odd years and the tweeters of a pair of 601 originals were far 'mellower' than I remembered when they were new. Sadly, some S2 models I heard at ten plus years old still spat high frequencies out just as they did when new. Heck, you'd think with my old ears the way they are now, that I'd prefer this, but I seriously don't!
 

thewas

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Do please be aware that some domestic speakers do change over twenty odd years and the tweeters of a pair of 601 originals were far 'mellower' than I remembered when they were new.
Often the problem of tweeters with drying ferrofluid after some decades.
 

Mart68

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, Tannoys in Lockwood cabinets were judged increasingly coloured and 801's were in a different league back then. !

My memory may be faulty so perhaps you can help, but I think I recall one of the engineers at Abbey Road bemoaning the loss of the Tannoys and saying that the replacement B&W were only good for holding the fire doors open.

Although personally I have heard quite a few B&W speakers that I liked.
 

tecnogadget

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The problem is that there's no consensus on the ideal room correction target, particular as it is used in room correction algorithms. It's been studied.

.

Really ? That’s pretty much already established.

Can’t you choose from any of these ?
1624097914108.png

We can even narrow it to less choices. Let say you choose from Olive-Toole and Harman(not plotted), the variations won’t be night and day, and will be well within an aceptable margin of tolerance for “preference” deviation.

As long as you apply any house curve with downfall slope, smooth transition, and phase/timing alignment, I would call it a day over just unboxing the speakers and listening to the stock sound.

The horrendous and wide variations below transition frequency on bass notes, and the sharp/ragged deviation on the rest of the spectrum due to bad design or manufacturer “house voicing”, are many times more harmful than the small variations between the most popular/accepted EQ Target curves.
 

zajogungster

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[QUOTE = "preload, post: 819485, člen: 16063"] Zverejnený výskum reproduktorov by s vami v tomto nesúhlasil.



A sme tu znova. Definujte „presnosť“ reproduktora.



Škoda, že veľa hudby bolo zvládnutých na čiernobielych monitoroch. [/ QUOTE]

som muzikant a milujem hudbu akehokoľvek žánru, reproduktory vyrábam viac než 20rokov a stale sa chcem učiť nove veci. Reproduktor by ale nemal mať ,, tipický zvuk" ale neutrálny , čo dáš to počuvaš. Príklad, ked pride ku mne na navštevu niekto s prosbou, pusti mi toto, to mám rád, tak často povie, no nehrá ti to moc dobre :D tak nejak sucho, nemá to bass atď. alebo wáw.. to je super. no záleží od toho ako je to mastrované a či to je Vinyl, DXD 512 (moje oblubene jednomikrofonové nahrávky) alebo hocčo. Tie repraky musia nutne hrať pravdu! Pravda je ale relativna, iny zosilnovač, iný prejav a tak to je naprieč celým reťazcom.Ale základ je mať presné a neutrálne reprobedne!!! z mrtveho materiálu, seriozne tlmenie, výhybku s kvalitnými sučiastkami, kde nejde len o filtre, že stačíaby kondenzator mal určitu kapacitu, ale aj ostatne jeho vlastnosti(tepelné, odpor atď) malé lacné sučiastky= veľké skreslenia a deformácie.
 

zajogungster

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[QUOTE = "TrevC, príspevok: 819597, člen: 30329"] Som si istý, že B&W v dnešnej dobe používa vo svojich crossoveroch kvalitné komponenty. [/ QUOTE]
tak ich začni pitvať ako ja a potom už len ostáva smiech cez slzy
 
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