Bob Clearmountain home and studio destroyed by Palisades fire | he and family are safe

[Soandso]

It's climate change in action, the desert is crawling northwards and bushfires are the tool of it. It's caused by high temperature and no rain and the strong wind does certainly not help. The same is happening in southern Europe with big bushfires also. But not in city centers like here in LA and surroundings.

Are you actually living in southern California or extrapolating from theories about "climate change in action"?

One of this weeks largest fires started from a downed power line as night fell that a neighbor immediately reported and which the local fire department responded at the site in fifteen (15) minutes. It was the annually occurring high "Santa Ana" winds which come barreling down from the local mountain crests (a perpetual seasonal feature of differential air temperature between those mountains and the lower elevations) that had been gusting since daybreak which fanned the flames and due to those high winds fire fighting planes could not take off to drop retardant for many hours through the night.

That particular fire started in the foothills above a city founded 150 years ago still containing lots of wood houses with mature tree/bush landscaping that received embers driven by the recurring high wind gusts. Unfortunately, although firemen worked over 48 hours all over there, many homes/businesses were destroyed and at least 5 townspeople perished during that particular fire.

It's "anthropogenic" all right, just not "climate change."

 

[Petrushka]

Are you actually living in southern California or extrapolating from theories about "climate change in action"?

One of this weeks largest fires started from a downed power line as night fell that a neighbor immediately reported and which the local fire department responded at the site in fifteen (15) minutes. It was the annually occurring high "Santa Ana" winds which come barreling down from the local mountain crests (a perpetual seasonal feature of differential air temperature between those mountains and the lower elevations) that had been gusting since daybreak which fanned the flames and due to those high winds fire fighting planes could not take off to drop retardant for many hours through the night.

That particular fire started in the foothills above a city founded 150 years ago still containing lots of wood houses with mature tree/bush landscaping that received embers driven by the recurring high wind gusts. Unfortunately, although firemen worked over 48 hours all over there, many homes/businesses were destroyed and at least 5 townspeople perished during that particular fire.

It's "anthropogenic" all right, just not "climate change."

A perfect firestorm. Invasive trees that burn like petroleum.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Really?

Maybe because of earthquakes causing shifts in the underground cables?

 

[Chrispy]

Maybe because of earthquakes causing shifts in the underground cables?

I lived in California for many years, there are many areas with underground cables. The older ones not so much of course, whether it's a permit issue is possible but probably simply expense.

 

[Petrushka]

I lived in California for many years, there are many areas with underground cables. The older ones not so much of course, whether it's a permit issue is possible but probably simply expense.

They are the same thing.

 

[OldHvyMec]

It's strange about the eucalyptus in the Bay Area and surrounding Delta. 90% were removed because they have no tap root. Because they were planted on and beside the levies as wind breaks. When the ground gets saturated and the wind gets above 50mph the trees simply fall over and tear out huge chunks of the levy or rip a hole in the island/fabric (decomposed Tule Pete) that starts the water flowing through the tunnel it makes. Islands are inundated in a matter of hours. If there are super tides it can happen in less than 2-3 hours, depending on the size of the island.

If you want a BAD, HOT fire where trees literally explode when they get hot, Eucalyptus is the one. We have a few here and there but without permits, the city will usually remove them with very little cause.

The fires down south are simple to understand. The LA bason is a desert. That water was pumped from the delta and the Colorado River. LA has overbuilt way
beyond safe water limits. NorCal, on the other hand, has had to deal with wildfires for 400 years. There are thousands of above-ground tanks required by law to even
build one home in many parts, from San Jose NORTH. I've been on a lot of tank retrofits and additions through the years. NorCal took the fire threat seriously. We have the Delta, tanks, brush clearing, and mandatory burns in place and they use them every single year. We also have special all-wheel-drive pumpers for the hill fires. I know we have close to 50 fires a year in just the Bay and surrounding areas. Seldom do they get a home EXCEPT for the Oakland hills. They will NEVER learn. 3 times they have burnt to the ground in the last 50 years and keep doing the same GD thing. Usually, about 1/3 of the people there don't have insurance. I've had to work there 2 different times behind the fires for close to 3 months a pop. Narrow crappy roads.

LA never has taken the fire threat seriously. It has ZERO to do with climate change unless you consider horrible planning and no water other than ocean water climate change. In case people didn't know the LA area still pumps a LOT of natural gas and many oil wells on and off shore. They happen to be disguised so you can't tell where the well head pumps are.

It was proposed 45-60 years ago in one of the worst fires in LA history, (It burnt the Hollywood sign down if I remember), to use OCEAN water with high-volume pumps in the event of fires. It fell on interested ears, BUT not ones that counted. Ronald Reagan was Governor then. They had a good shot at putting out the fires but piss poor planning, pissed off firefighters, VERY poor access, and no water.

From Malibu to San Diego it is overgrown by at least 5 times what it should be. Guys, it's a desert and all the surrounding areas inland are HOT DRY deserts. The Imperial Valley and Death Valley are right there. 115-125 are not uncommon. The actual bason hovers around 100 degrees 6 months out of the year. NOT on GOLF courses but where people actually WORK. There is typically a 10-15 degree difference in a well-watered golf course green vs the typical LA area. BTW That is where they take the temperature so they don't have to pay hazard pay and provide added breaks for outside skilled or unskilled workers.

It's going to get worse before it gets better AND the finger-pointing is just starting. There are currently 7500 firefighters not including HotShot being flown in from AZ and NM. The best of the best are from both those areas. They happen to be females too.

Regards

 

[Fahzz]

Heartbreaking stuff, just terrible.

View attachment 419996


JSmith

Looks like Dresden or Tokyo.

 

[Soandso]

A perfect firestorm. Invasive trees that burn like petroleum.

Casual extrapolations like yours widely miss the mark. It's been more like "invasive" old wood houses built in foothills where wild fires have been occurring for millennium "that burn like" dry kindling.

As for the over 60,000 "trees" that were in that devastated city among them are native oaks, palms, firs and flowering ones among others in lesser numbers. Homes are/were usually landscaped with trees and bushes considered drought tolerant. For reference there are no stands of eucalyptus along the streets, although there are some individual eucalyptus which however were/are not exactly towering specimens.

 

[Chrispy]

They are the same thing.

No, you can get a permit if you want to spend the money am sure. Best to just incorporate it in a development, tho. Many in the air lines contributed to past fires, why they sometimes turn power off during high wind events. Not sure LA was doing that like is common now in northern california.

 

[Doodski]

No, you can get a permit if you want to spend the money am sure. Best to just incorporate it in a development, tho. Many in the air lines contributed to past fires, why they sometimes turn power off during high wind events. Not sure LA was doing that like is common now in northern california.

I had no idea it could be so windy in California. 90mph wind speed gusts is very high. I'm not sure if I have ever experienced such weather. Sounds scary.

 

[Chrispy]

I had no idea it could be so windy in California. 90mph wind speed gusts is very high. I'm not sure if I have ever experienced such weather. Sounds scary.

The Santa Ana winds they mention are fairly peculiar to the greater LA/Southern California area (almost the same thing these days there's such sprawl). OTOH I've lived in San Francisco as well and they don't get these particular winds. They can get high wind, but not particularly usual. The Santa Ana winds in socal are fairly reliable but times of year can vary somewhat.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Building houses/homes in my city has turned into, "Infill housing." It's where 2 narrow houses or 4 row units are built on a single lot. Fire hazard be damned I guess.

I believe that if infill housing uses reasonably fire-resistant roofing and siding materials, then it becomes a far lower fire risk than the single family house surrounded by trees and vegetation.

 

[Doodski]

I believe that if infill housing uses reasonably fire-resistant roofing and siding materials, then it becomes a far lower fire risk than the single family house surrounded by trees and vegetation.

Plastic siding and asphalt shingles are the norm and usual here. I've seen house fires where the entire side of a adjacent building is simply melted off and bare wood is shown. What is used commonly in the LA area? Stucco on those old art deco buildings?

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Plastic siding and asphalt shingles are the norm and usual here. I've seen house fires where the entire side of a adjacent building is simply melted off and bare wood is shown. What is used commonly in the LA area? Stucco on those old art deco buildings?

I think the issue is still that closely adjacent trees, ground vegetation, wooden shingle roofs, and roofs with dried out debris in the crevasse are far greater risks in the general case. In other words, places like the Palisades neighborhoods.

Now, if you are adding this massive in-fill housing in an environment that still has all of the highly flammable vegetation around it, then yea... even more people's homes will be massively affected in such a conflagration.

 

[Doodski]

I think the issue is still that closely adjacent trees, ground vegetation, wooden shingle roofs, and roofs with dried out debris in the crevasse are far greater risks in the general case. In other words, places like the Palisades neighborhoods.

IC. Are there no fire prevention bylaws for this sort of stuff like adjacent trees, ground vegetation and debris on the roofs etc?

 

[rcstevensonaz]

IC. Are there no fire prevention bylaws for this sort of stuff like adjacent trees, ground vegetation and debris on the roofs etc?

From what I understand, the issue (and risk) of a conflagration such as Palisades (including loss of water pressure) has been well known for a very long time. From what I've read, this is the type of storm that everyone feared and everyone hoped would never happen (to them). This one is also in a category on its own due to the extremely high winds and dry conditions following years of wet growth periods. I am not local to the LAX area, so I can't speak to regulations or politics on that aspect.

I mention the above as a disclaimer, because my reaction to your initial comment regarding "in-fill housing being a fire risk" is based on an entirely different context. I came across the following article, dating back to the 1980's, where one researcher wound up taking a very different perspective on dealing with forest fires. In particular, his conclusion was that forward-blown embers were the predominant means of rapid fire progression rather than the effect of the spreading fire itself: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/built-to-burn/

 

[rcstevensonaz]

On a related note, I was extremely happy to read that Laurel Canyon was spared in this round.

 

[Doodski]

In particular, his conclusion was that forward-blown embers were the predominant means of rapid fire progression rather than the effect of the spreading fire itself: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/built-to-burn/

I experienced this when a large forest fire was burning about 3 miles away from a house I lived in. Singed and burnt debris was blown and deposited on the roof and deck. Every day I would have to go out and sweep the stuff off. Burnt pine needles, burnt pine cones, burned small branches etc. It was close and we where on alert to have bug out bags at the ready.

 

[Keith_W]

Sounds like you guys should learn some lessons from Australia about wildfire management. Over here, bushfires are a fact of life. It happens regularly, and has been happening for thousands of years. In fact, some plant species have evolved to rely on bushfires for germination. On top of that, you have been planting Eucalyptus trees which are native to Australia. You guys know that these things are like giant flammable candles, right? The bark peels off and is perfect for kindling. The trees produce oil which is flammable. In Australia, it's not only the sharks, spiders, crocs, and snakes that will kill you. Even the trees are trying to kill you.

We also know that worrying about arsonists is not the solution - even if the cause of the fire was not deliberate, there are plenty of natural causes for bushfires. As we say - a fire can be started by an arsonist. But a bushfire is due to the environment, and the environment needs to be managed.

Bushfire management relies on fuel reduction. State governments conduct regular controlled burns to reduce fuel. Local councils have strict laws about fuel management on private properties. A friend of mine lives on a 2 acre plot with plenty of trees. I was there when he had his annual council inspection. The inspector walked around his property and told him to get this tree pruned, remove dead branches and leaves, remove all dead plant matter from roofing, and establish a clear zone around the house. He also checked if my friend had a bushfire plan (it is usually - "make sure you have insurance and a plan to get the hell out of there"). I don't know what you guys would think about that, because Australians and Americans have very different ideas about how much you let the government intrude on your private property. We put up with it because we don't want our neighbourhoods to collectively go up in smoke.

In the past, there has been political resistance to fuel reduction. Conservationist groups were opposed to it, many saw it as a backdoor to old growth forest logging. Well, a few bushfires later, these arguments have evaporated. Very few people in Australia are opposed to fuel reduction these days.

Around bushfire season, there are strict fire bans. No open fires - no BBQ, no outdoor fires of any kind. We have signs like this all around the country:

This disaster will spark a conversation. I can already see the same arguments that were trotted out in Australia 20-30 years ago. All I can say is: I hope you learn your lessons quickly.

 

[Doodski]

Sounds like you guys should learn some lessons from Australia about wildfire management. Over here, bushfires are a fact of life. It happens regularly, and has been happening for thousands of years. In fact, some plant species have evolved to rely on bushfires for germination. On top of that, you have been planting Eucalyptus trees which are native to Australia. You guys know that these things are like giant flammable candles, right? The bark peels off and is perfect for kindling. The trees produce oil which is flammable. In Australia, it's not only the sharks, spiders, crocs, and snakes that will kill you. Even the trees are trying to kill you.

We also know that worrying about arsonists is not the solution - even if the cause of the fire was not deliberate, there are plenty of natural causes for bushfires. As we say - a fire can be started by an arsonist. But a bushfire is due to the environment, and the environment needs to be managed.

Bushfire management relies on fuel reduction. State governments conduct regular controlled burns to reduce fuel. Local councils have strict laws about fuel management on private properties. A friend of mine lives on a 2 acre plot with plenty of trees. I was there when he had his annual council inspection. The inspector walked around his property and told him to get this tree pruned, remove dead branches and leaves, remove all dead plant matter from roofing, and establish a clear zone around the house. He also checked if my friend had a bushfire plan (it is usually - "make sure you have insurance and a plan to get the hell out of there"). I don't know what you guys would think about that, because Australians and Americans have very different ideas about how much you let the government intrude on your private property. We put up with it because we don't want our neighbourhoods to collectively go up in smoke.

In the past, there has been political resistance to fuel reduction. Conservationist groups were opposed to it, many saw it as a backdoor to old growth forest logging. Well, a few bushfires later, these arguments have evaporated. Very few people in Australia are opposed to fuel reduction these days.

Around bushfire season, there are strict fire bans. No open fires - no BBQ, no outdoor fires of any kind. We have signs like this all around the country:

View attachment 420202

This disaster will spark a conversation. I can already see the same arguments that were trotted out in Australia 20-30 years ago. All I can say is: I hope you learn your lessons quickly.

In Canada the forest roads are sometimes shut down for access. Dirt bikes and outdoor equipment without spark arresters are not allowed. No fires, no BBQ, no stoves outside and no outside fireplaces etc. A near total shutdown. It works but in recent years we still lost some cities. One small little city went up in ~20 minutes it was so fast due to extreme winds and bush around the near desert area around the city. Very hot, dry and windy and they figure a spark from train rails caused it.