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BMR Tower vs Revel F328Be Compared

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amper42

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amper42's REW data in various views

Remember these are at-spot measurements, so
- response is "room curve" representing total radiated sound power, and showing room modes
- mic was close to the chair, so rather many nearfield reflections in upper freq range

Issues
- Revel impulse has strong interference, but BMR is flat at 2,8ms - what is causing that?
- spl level is too low to show difference in distortion
- BMR shows very uneven response above 1kHz
--- was mic height inappropriate for MTM xo summation, or did tweeter have wrong polarity? More quasi-anechoid measurements needed!
---short gate response, clarity and EDT hint to MT crossover summation problems too

View attachment 188007View attachment 188008

Attached is a REW BMR Tower vs F328Be measurement at 10 feet. The speaker is 10 feet away and UMIK-1 is at ear level. Mic stand sits at front edge of couch listening position. This measurement has less near field reflection as it occurs 1" in front of couch rather than at back cushion. UMIK-1 is aimed at speaker. The results are different but lower extension of BMR Tower and reduced roll-off of the tweeter still exist.
 

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  • BMRTower-F328Be-REW-10ft.mdat.zip
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amper42

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Audioholics James Larson has good quasi-anechoic measurements here https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/philharmonic-bmr/conclusion

Verticals don't look problematic

image_large2

While the 0-15 degree vertical BMR Tower meauresments are interesting. From a practical standpoint, I notice an immediate difference in the RAAL Tweeter sound when I stand up at the listening position 10 feet away - versus the Revel F328Be tweeter. The BMR Tower RAAL tweeter sits 36-38" off the floor while the Revel F328Be tweeter sits 46-47" off the floor with a very effective wave guide. The flush mounted RAAL ribbon tweeter sounds best when the tweeter is at ear level. The F328Be tweeter with wave guide is noticeably less directional.

F326-BMR Tower image.png
 

jcarys

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I have not heard the BMRs, though they are on my future list. But the discussion of volume limits is interesting. How high a SPL are talking about here? I mean if the BMRs can play back at low distortion to 110db, but the Revels go to 120db - who cares? 110db is more than enough for my home, and it honestly should be for any sane adult. (I do realize there are far fewer sane adults around these days...)
 
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Juhazi

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OMG, you had both LR speakers playing in measurements!
amper 10 12ft 12ms 13.jpg
 
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nerdoldnerdith

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I have not heard the BMRs, though they are on my future list. But the discussion of volume limits is interesting. How high a SPL are talking about here? I mean if the BMRs can play back at low distortion to 110db, but the Revels go to 120db - who cares? 110db is more than enough for my home, and it honestly should be for any sane adult. (I do realize there are far fewer sane adults around these days...)
Not even close. The BMR's won't be able to hit reference levels at typical listening distances for towers. I own the bookshelfs and I am getting rid of them because they simply aren't appropriate for home theater
 

TurtlePaul

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How high a SPL are talking about here? I mean if the BMRs can play back at low distortion to 110db, but the Revels go to 120db - who cares? 110db is more than enough for my home, and it honestly should be for any sane adult. (I do realize there are far fewer sane adults around these days...)
The Revels are overkill for overkill’s sake. They are top of the line. These questions never makes sense at the extremes and aren’t intended to. Ergo, the Performa3 (F206 or F208) would be the better comparisons. It is less a commentary on the BMR than the “cost is no object” nature of the F328Be.
 

Juhazi

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Only the right speaker of each pair was selected in REW for pink noise measurements.

OK, then you have some other very serious problems with your measurement system. I can't find any other reason for such huge differences.
 

Jdunk54nl

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I have not heard the BMRs, though they are on my future list. But the discussion of volume limits is interesting. How high a SPL are talking about here? I mean if the BMRs can play back at low distortion to 110db, but the Revels go to 120db - who cares? 110db is more than enough for my home, and it honestly should be for any sane adult. (I do realize there are far fewer sane adults around these days...)

I'm powering mine with buckeye 502mp modules and using an htp-1 that easily can hit the power limits of those modules.
I have also done a lot of the Harman how to listen (level 8+ on all of their tests) as well as other a/b/x blind tests and have scored outside of statistical anomaly's in those a/b/x tests. So I can hear the differences. I only say this to tell you the following, so take the above with a grain of salt.

In my couple days of listening at really loud volumes (just to test things out), the bmr's are not showing any signs of distortion. I used the decibel x app on my iPhone with z weighting and my average listening volume was 88db with peaks up high 90's.
This is a listening distance of 11ft and 12ft from the right/left speaker.
 

Dennis Murphy

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OK, then you have some other very serious problems with your measurement system. I can't find any other reason for such huge differences.
I'm getting a little lost here. I never know quite what to make of REW measurements. They always show bumps and grinds that aren't there in the anechoic measurements. I guess they're valid for a given room, but it's hard to generalize to other situations. The inherent response of the towers can be found here: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/philharmonic-bmr/conclusion
 
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amper42

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OK, then you have some other very serious problems with your measurement system. I can't find any other reason for such huge differences.

I'm certainly not an expert on REW. The furniture is having an impact at different Mic locations. While I moved the coffee table out of the way for the measurements there is still two couches, a giant chair and a pool table in the room. I set the pink noise generator to determine a 75dB level with each speaker then ran the measurement with the UMIK-1 in the same location for each distance/speaker. I would absolutely agree it's not a good method to analyze FR response. But the absolute low and high extensions seem to show repeat performance with each reading.
 

Randy Bessinger

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Not even close. The BMR's won't be able to hit reference levels at typical listening distances for towers. I own the bookshelfs and I am getting rid of them because they simply aren't appropriate for home theater
I am curious as to how much you listen at reference levels? I am in Wichita KS now but was part of the original KC theater group and had JTR’s In my home theater. While the KC group guys demoed at reference levels and above (hey Michael of High Impact AV.. how ya doin?), it was mainly for demos and testing not for watching a movie or listening to music.

I found, at least for me, that having the ability to listen at reference was nice but not really very useful from a practical standpoint. Now, from a dynamic range and compression standpoint, that can be a different story.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. Jonathan, Doug, Sheldon, etc. probably don’t agree with me!
 
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Everett T

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Okay, but so good and "equal" speakers how to evaluate them? FR can be filed with EQ, according to your own wishes and tastes. Remains then directivity and you can not advise on that, other than to perhaps say that most people seem to appreciate X such, but it is ultimately individual what one appreciates. :)
Distortion, on the other hand, I have a hard time believing that anyone likes it. Distortion that is more easily detected at higher volumes.

Wouldn't it have been more rewarding to try something else, say a couple of good electrostatic speakers, dipoles? If you have not already tested such before, that is. That type of construction seems to be a watershed, some really like it others not at all.:)

Edit:
In addition to the above: the placement of the speakers in the listening room, how much furniture and carpets there is in the room, reverbation time, type of recording of the music and so on so there are a lot of factors to consider. Which is both fun and a challenge.:)
Well you can eq some speakers that way, but not nearly as many as one would think. Starting with a flat frequency response helps and from there you better have a DI to work with. You definitely don't want to be raising the decibel levels with eq to a desired point, that almost never works out.
 

Everett T

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Not even close. The BMR's won't be able to hit reference levels at typical listening distances for towers. I own the bookshelfs and I am getting rid of them because they simply aren't appropriate for home theater
What reference level, THX? That's not the main goal of these speakers.
 

Everett T

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I am curious as to how much you listen at reference levels? I am in Wichita KS now but was part of the original KC theater group and had JTR’s In my home theater. While the KC group guys demoed at reference levels and above (hey Michael of High Impact AV.. how ya doin?), it was mainly for demos and testing not for watching a movie or listening to music.

I found, at least for me, that having the ability to listen at reference was nice but not really very useful from a practical standpoint. Now, from a dynamic range and compression standpoint, that can be a different story.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. Jonathan, Doug, Sheldon, etc. probably don’t agree with me!
I hear ya, rarely do I ever listen to any of my systems like that with others at home. Now it's not to say that haven't gone full live orchestra volume on some classical recordings, that doesn't raise the wife's eyebrows as much as some of my selections :D
 

Juhazi

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Just to compare measurement validity, here my left and right speakers measured separately at 3 different handheld positions near LP, distance 9-10ft.
My room is normal living room with two sofas and a wooden table between speakers and spot. Same scale, gating and smoothing.

Yes Dennis, REW measurements at forums carry numerous unknown issues... Impossible to make definite conclusions from them.


amper 10 12ft 12ms 13.jpg
juhazi varispot lr 12ms 13.jpg
.
 
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TurtlePaul

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I dont think anyone disagrees, the REW measurements are actual in-room and the response is room related. I doubt OP wants to spend hours moving and measuring hundred pound and thousands of dollars speakers to flatten the wiggles. The 10 ft measurement seems to confirm this is room related.

Dennis, congratulations as usual on another great design!
 

Larry B. Larabee

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The performance of the BMR is close enough (better?) to the Revel for me to consider the Revel a swindle at that price.
Probably any speaker that costs 14k has serious competition from a currently available modern desgn at 4k.
 

LightninBoy

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I just took delivery of some bmr towers too, and they sound amazing.
Let's take a moment to realize that these are competing in this against revels top of the line speaker and a $14,000 difference in price!

View attachment 188005
Folks, this is the way you do a center channel.

The BMR towers look nice in black.
 
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