Blown away by Equalizer APO last night - what's next!

[yelloguy]

So I had the WiiM Pro in my cart at $105 and I was ready to checkout when I saw a WiiM mini show up in stock (yes they are still in stock as I type this). The temptation at $60 was just too great to buy the mini so I ordered a mini instead. I couldn't justify paying $45 extra for the Wiim Pro for an additional digital input for my Apple TV. (I will never use the analog input for any use case).

Maybe I will regret it later. If I do I'll get the Pro and move the mini to upstairs. Thanks to @ShadowBoxer for the tip!

 

[Jon L]

why don't you use proven devices?View attachment 380013

I have the dbx PA2 and LOVE the ergonomics and ease of dbx autoEQ. However, the sound quality of analogue output from PA 2 is not quite where it needs it to be for revealing systems. PA2 is a relatively inexpensive device that was introduced now 11 years ago. I do wish dbx would launch an updated version with better digital chips and analogue parts.

 

[Maxon]

I wonder what's wrong with the dbx PA2 analog outputs for your system?

I have the dbx PA2 and LOVE the ergonomics and ease of dbx autoEQ. However, the sound quality of analogue output from PA 2 is not quite where it needs it to be for revealing systems. PA2 is a relatively inexpensive device that was introduced now 11 years ago. I do wish dbx would launch an updated version with better digital chips and analogue parts.

 

[Joe Smith]

So, a question - I am trying out the Peace interface again after not using for some time - if I apply Amir's recommended curve settings from his headphone reviews for specific frequencies (he uses the Roon interface, I believe), that should translate as same with Equalizer APO/Peace?

There are "Q" settings in the Roon settings, but I don't see any correlation for whatever that is in Peace - is that correct?

Was playing with the curve adjustments for AKG K361 phones following the recommendation for K371, since the curves are similar...

 

[yelloguy]

There are "Q" settings in the Roon settings, but I don't see any correlation for whatever that is in Peace - is that correct?

I wouldn't use Peace. Just editing the text file in APO is simple once you understand the syntax. It is way more flexible than anything - not knowing what Roon gives you - since it is just plain text.

I am sure there is a way in Peace to do the PEQ filters but I couldn't be bothered to learn. Sorry.

 

[Doodski]

So, a question - I am trying out the Peace interface again after not using for some time - if I apply Amir's recommended curve settings from his headphone reviews for specific frequencies (he uses the Roon interface, I believe), that should translate as same with Equalizer APO/Peace?

There are "Q" settings in the Roon settings, but I don't see any correlation for whatever that is in Peace - is that correct?

Was playing with the curve adjustments for AKG K361 phones following the recommendation for K371, since the curves are similar...

The Q settings are right on the main page as outlined in orange.

 

[Joe Smith]

The Q settings are right on the main page as outlined in orange.
View attachment 406766

Duh, thanks, Doodski! I just saw that and plugged in Amir's values...
In the K371 thread, I asked if anyone has adjusted settings for the K361 model to suggest, right now I have put in Amir's values for the K371 from his review...

 

[Doodski]

Duh, thanks, Doodski! I just saw that and plugged in Amir's values...
In the K371 thread, I asked if anyone has adjusted settings for the K361 model to suggest, right now I have put in Amir's values for the K371 from his review...

Good stuff. After plugging in values keep a eyeball on the Peak Meter Value and if it is clipping use the Pre-Amplifying control to reduce the level to where it does not clip anymore.

 

[Joe Smith]

Switched back to my Elac 2.0 B6 speakers yesterday, loaded in suggested EQ settings from Amir's review, I do like the adjusted EQ. Not a huge difference, but better for sure.

 

[yelloguy]

Not huge but better sounds great. I would be worried if it was huge. I mean EQ is not supposed to make bass when the speakers can't. So, small and better with EQ is par for the course. Just like the sound Gods intended...

 

[Andro]

The best system upgrade I've had in a while! I've been auditioning new speakers, and I bought an external amp to see if I can improve my current setup.

To start at the beginning, I get pretty good sound when I feed FLAC files to my Marantz AVR using DLNA/uPnP. Wide airy sound stage, precise instruments, loud bass. What I don't like is a bit of rattling in my room. Shelves, picture frames on the wall, etc. The bass sounds a bit loose. REW+Umik measurements reveal a couple of "room modes" but I was never quite sure how to handle those. I tried various things with Audyssey, introducing WiiM mini for Equalization, buying a new amp to see if driving my speakers was an issue, etc.

Last couple of weeks I was learning and playing with Equalizer APO with a Windows PC. After lots of reading and experiments, I set up two tests last night. One EQ was automatically generated using REW for 20Hz to 20K. It gave me some 6-7 corrections. And one EQ was manually created by me. Simply looking at the two frequency peaks and reducing them by 5dB with a Q of 5 (I think). After several A/B comparisons (non-blind) I found that I did NOT like the auto generated EQ too much. But the manual one! Man oh man! Absolutely amazing sound. It took away those rattles and the extra loudness in bass and "lifted a veil" from the sound further enhancing clarity. It was stunning. Subtle but very significant.

Now the problem is that I cannot go back. I was well set up with my sources before. Logitech Media Server, DLNA, etc. I have an Apple TV device for playing lossless Apple Music (this gives me the same audio quality as FLAC files via DLNA). But as soon as I listened to these source, all I heard was the rattling (I have to say it happens only on some songs. Most songs don't hit those low frequencies). But I want to listen to all those songs "the right way" now.

With the new EQ, I only have Foobar2000 playing in non-exclusive mode (because I need Equalizer APO). So my music selection gets limited to my own FLAC (and mp3) files. I have Spotify running on Windows which does give me pretty decent sound quality but to raise it up all the way I will have to get CD's and FLAC files because I can't EQ the Apple TV and the FireTV stick, and the DLNA playback etc. Or can I? Any pointers appreciated.

I will look into buying and setting up a raspberry pi with volumio if it can help. Or those $100 mini PC devices on Amazon. Maybe a $200 DAC or something. Or I can continue to use the existing Windows PC tower connected to the AVR via HDMI. (I don't know if I can live with using remote desktop and Foobar2000 though)... How do others do this? TIA.

I am not sure how to phrase this properly without sounding offensive, just let me disclaim that I have no such purpose. If you don't hear sufficient difference between Spotify and lossless music your system is not there yet and your bar is too low. I've used Spotify for many years and only 5 years ago I upgraded my system enough to hear how horrible it is, absolutely huge sound quality gap between Spotify and CD quality.
Up to only few months ago I thought that HD resolution music is a snake oil. I listen for it for 5 years after ditching Spotify for Tidal but it sounded the same.
Only few months ago when I started building my own DIY speakers I've discovered that the gap between CD and HD is also substantial. I've mentioned it in forums but the reaction I felt was that people don't take my word seriously. I feel lonely in my stupid HD music church because everyone thinks it's dedicated to a false god.

 

[Koeitje]

You can get a cheap Windows laptop for peanuts on eBay. It's got a built in screen, USB ports and APO is a Windows app so it's really good. I just set it so when you close the lid it doesn't go into sleep mode in power settings, just turns the screen off. Can also run Kodi for a media server.

Just remote into a mini pc.

 

[staticV3]

I am not sure how to phrase this properly without sounding offensive, just let me disclaim that I have no such purpose. If you don't hear sufficient difference between Spotify and lossless music your system is not there yet and your bar is too low. I've used Spotify for many years and only 5 years ago I upgraded my system enough to hear how horrible it is, absolutely huge sound quality gap between Spotify and CD quality.
Up to only few months ago I thought that HD resolution music is a snake oil. I listen for it for 5 years after ditching Spotify for Tidal but it sounded the same.
Only few months ago when I started building my own DIY speakers I've discovered that the gap between CD and HD is also substantial. I've mentioned it in forums but the reaction I felt was that people don't take my word seriously. I feel lonely in my stupid HD music church because everyone thinks it's dedicated to a false god.

Let me ask you this: were any of your listening tests performed with the appropriate controls in place?

Did you make sure that you were listening to the same master across Spotify, CD, and HD?

Did you make sure that any level differences due to loudness normalization were corrected?

Did you listen blind, so without knowing which format was playing?

If so, then I'd love to know what kind of confidence intervals you achieved when comparing e.g. CD to HD.

 

[Andro]

Let me ask you this: were any of your listening tests performed with the appropriate controls in place?

Did you make sure that you were listening to the same master across Spotify, CD, and HD?

Did you make sure that any level differences due to loudness normalization were corrected?

Did you listen blind, so without knowing which format was playing?

If so, then I'd love to know what kind of confidence intervals you achieved when comparing e.g. CD to HD.

I do agree that the placebo effect exists. So I need to describe. I have 2 computers on my desk, one for work and one for streaming music. I have some special USB hardware that requires a dedicated full tower PC for music, I cannot stream music properly from a laptop.
So they share the same monitor and I have a switch to the other computer. When the music plays I have no quick way to see what's playing and what's the sound resolution.
And very often I listen some new random track generated by the Tidal AI and I think wow this one sounds so good, the harmonics are reacher, the sound stage is deeper, the grand piano sounds like a concert hall. This MUST be HD quality.
So I need to stand up and switch the cable switchers for the monitor and keyboard separately and it takes several seconds waiting for my monitor to detect another computer, so it's a lot of trouble for doing it often. I do it only when it sounds too good and I want to bookmark the track or at least to see what is playing.
And guess what, in 95% of cases it is indeed HD quality music. CD quality just almost never has this wow live concert hall effect. 95% is 2 standard deviations on 100 samples. I would be a trillionaire if I did it in Vegas.

 

[Andro]

And frankly the difference between CD 16 bits format and HD resolution music is so large that it's beyond any blind test necessity, it's like flipping between two stereo systems all together. Everything in the sound is different, not just some particular attribute. I know, just 6 months ago I would not believe it myself.

 

[staticV3]

the difference between CD 16 bits format and HD resolution music is so large that it's beyond any blind test necessity, it's like flipping between two stereo systems all together. Everything in the sound is different, not just some particular attribute.

This should be your dead giveaway that you're indeed not comparing the sound of different formats, but of different masters.

That it is not, and that you're attributing what you hear to differences in medium is concerning.

There are many shady actors in this industry who will exploit such gaps in reasoning for profit.

 

[Andro]

This should be your dead giveaway that you're indeed not comparing the sound of different formats, but of different masters.

That it is not, and that you're attributing what you hear to differences in medium is concerning.

There are many shady actors in this industry who will exploit such gaps in reasoning for profit.

So true, and yet, I have to refute. One large argument is that I have the access to the HD music for 5 years already, since I upgraded from Spotify to Tidal. And I never heard any difference. Just 4 months ago I was firmly in the camp that HD music is a snake oil, I would be with you here today against some fat wallet audiophile who was duped by a shady salesperson. I even recall some scientific paper explaining that 16 bits is enough, and I was totally on board with that conclusion.
And another reason is that I was not sold into an upgrade, I've started my own DIY speaker project in October and I'm still only halfway down. The effect I'm describing is from my prototype speakers, and the crossover still has many issues. One of the boxes is still built from MDF and after some rebuilding I've discovered that birch plywood sounds a whole lot better, so I'm about to trash the whole box into garbage and move the parts into a new one. I am on the 20th iteration of the crossover and I'm still not fully satisfied, and I had to read a lot to figure out my mistakes. With some crossovers they sounded bad no matter CD or HD. I believe that my prototype is already better than pretty much any $5k speakers but my goal is really $6,666 or it's not done. I'm experimenting with various variants of wool felt patching on the baffle and I hear the difference. I'm experimenting with gluing some absorbing rubber between 4 layers of plywood and I'm still to find out the result because it's not done. I've discovered that just changing the speaker position and orientation makes a lot of difference. And I already have over 400 hours of listening on my prototypes so I know how the music can sound. My sound testing playlist currently has 836 tracks so I'm engaging with some diverse music.
The difference between CD and HD was never my target, it was more like an accidental discovery I've made about 6 weeks ago. At some point late December I was starting thinking wait a minute, is that just my latest crossover randomness or just the last few hours of listening started to skew in the direction that I prefer the sound of the HD music?
And granted, I can accept that statistically the HD music is just mixed on more expensive equipment by more experienced engineers that don't bother of making CD tracks anymore, this could be true. But then it has to be over 90% statistical fidelity. Unfortunately I cannot give you a single CD track from this 836 collection where I can say I'm blown away by quality, none of them is perfect.

 

[yelloguy]

I am not sure how to phrase this properly without sounding offensive

You are the quintessential "audiophile" I've vowed not to engage with.

o diy - check
o offensive - check
o in his own world - check
o believes in snake oil - check
o doesn't understand homonyms - check
o uses strange statistics - check
o believes his equipment or ears are better than the rest of world - check

Thanks for playing

 

[Joe Smith]

So true, and yet, I have to refute. One large argument is that I have the access to the HD music for 5 years already, since I upgraded from Spotify to Tidal. And I never heard any difference. Just 4 months ago I was firmly in the camp that HD music is a snake oil, I would be with you here today against some fat wallet audiophile who was duped by a shady salesperson. I even recall some scientific paper explaining that 16 bits is enough, and I was totally on board with that conclusion.
And another reason is that I was not sold into an upgrade, I've started my own DIY speaker project in October and I'm still only halfway down. The effect I'm describing is from my prototype speakers, and the crossover still has many issues. One of the boxes is still built from MDF and after some rebuilding I've discovered that birch plywood sounds a whole lot better, so I'm about to trash the whole box into garbage and move the parts into a new one. I am on the 20th iteration of the crossover and I'm still not fully satisfied, and I had to read a lot to figure out my mistakes. With some crossovers they sounded bad no matter CD or HD. I believe that my prototype is already better than pretty much any $5k speakers but my goal is really $6,666 or it's not done. I'm experimenting with various variants of wool felt patching on the baffle and I hear the difference. I'm experimenting with gluing some absorbing rubber between 4 layers of plywood and I'm still to find out the result because it's not done. I've discovered that just changing the speaker position and orientation makes a lot of difference. And I already have over 400 hours of listening on my prototypes so I know how the music can sound. My sound testing playlist currently has 836 tracks so I'm engaging with some diverse music.
The difference between CD and HD was never my target, it was more like an accidental discovery I've made about 6 weeks ago. At some point late December I was starting thinking wait a minute, is that just my latest crossover randomness or just the last few hours of listening started to skew in the direction that I prefer the sound of the HD music?
And granted, I can accept that statistically the HD music is just mixed on more expensive equipment by more experienced engineers that don't bother of making CD tracks anymore, this could be true. But then it has to be over 90% statistical fidelity. Unfortunately I cannot give you a single CD track from this 836 collection where I can say I'm blown away by quality, none of them is perfec

This just all sounds so exhausting. I wish you could just relax and enjoy music! You can endlessly chase that last .0000001% or just...be!

 

[Andro]

I'm pretty old and it was long overdue that younger generations call me a grumpy grandpa