Blind test: we have a volunteer!!!

[Geert]

Correct. We never converged on how to do the AB testing physically. The number of ways there could be a "tell" was quite large and if the goal is reduced to just differentiate between two items, the job would be done. That wasn't the spirit or intent of my challenge.

Do you think his proposed testing protocol backs all that was said in that video? How would you take the leap from telling two amps apart for any reason to backing all the subjective commentary in there?

I understand the issue you have with the difference only test, but now we're at a stalemate I'm afraid. I don't know of a test that would allow GO to proof he can hear the very specific sound attributes he mentioned. There's no way to for example switch fatigueing or graininess on and of.

So personally I believe there's still value in doing a difference only test between devices that measure transparent. I understand it might not be worth 1.000$, but I don't think that's what GO is after. This test might seem to basic, but the claim that we'll measuring amps and DAC's sound identical is still good for at least 1 fight a day on this forum, resulting in endless discussions without any progress of insight.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Trust me when I say it's definitely not entertaining for a those that have spent years helping build ASR , formative members and retired mods alike . This thread and the MQA thread are a sad state of affairs.

If something like this is to stand a chance first thing would be to talk in private offline and agree on test aims and protocols , to then set that in a email and both publish it on respected platforms independently. Then you have solid ground to open a thread like this , with a shared statement to be ' peer reviewed ' by the membership .

This is just a circus, both sides thinking they hold the hill. Our vlogger friend can afford such game we need to be better imo .

Apologies, I didn't mean to be callous when I said "entertaining" - that was wrong of me. Allow me to rephrase: this was interesting for a few days (I'd even say the low-level sparring was amusing), but then the drama factor went through the roof, and it has, as you say, become a circus.

 

[amirm]

So personally I believe there's still value in doing a difference only test between devices that measure transparent.

And I proposed and plan to do that very thing. I have the two amps he compared in the video. I plan to capture the output and perform listening tests. This was proposed on page one of this thread and I supported it. I could even conduct the test live for local people.

 

[Geert]

Besides, I'm not sure what the point even is in the end. Similar tests have been done, and the results are as boring as they are predictable.

Show the world AS is not the to close minded and arrogant community everyone thinks it is. AS needs an event like this, where objectivist and subjectivist work together to learn and discover.

 

[amirm]

If all of that is true, then the idea to test the claims via ABX was either flawed from the outset, or not proposed/considered in good faith

I never proposed an ABX test nor is our volunteer on the path to do one. He is going to do an AB test. Not ABX.

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

Show the world AS is not the to close minded and arrogant community everyone thinks it is. AS needs an event like this, where objectivist and subjectivist work together to learn and discover.

Then I think Amir's digital capture would be perfect. It can be publicly posted, for anyone to try as they like with no pressure at all.

I think "close-minded" is kind of ridiculous, though. It seems to me that many people come here and disagree with 'basic premises' (so to speak - i.e. audio science) of the forum, but they are not banned. To my understanding, that's not the case in many other audio discussion boards.

 

[amirm]

Show the world AS is not the to close minded and arrogant community everyone thinks it is. AS needs an event like this, where objectivist and subjectivist work together to learn and discover.

You could do learning without my $1000 on the line. would you put that much money on the line with the test our blogger wants to run?

 

[Geert]

And I proposed and plan to do that very thing. I have the two amps he compared in the video. I plan to capture the output and perform listening tests. This was proposed on page one of this thread and I supported it. I could even conduct the test live for local people.

I think it's a good think to take this plan forward, however, a lot of people won't find it conclusive. You already saw the objections regarding the extra digital conversion steps. But nevertheless, taking small steps is better than endless discussions.

 

[BaaM]

...

God bless you.
This thread is ridiculous at this point, these ego wars are just pathetic, we're so far away from science
I feel that all this will end up in 100 pages of flood, and no blind test at all.

Please mods, lock this thread until the test is done.

 

[Blaspheme]

I never proposed an ABX test nor is our volunteer on the path to do one. He is going to do an AB test. Not ABX.

AB or ABX doesn't change the premise of my post.

 

[Geert]

would you put that much money on the line with the test our blogger wants to run?

No:

.. I understand it might not be worth 1.000$, ...

 

[aandres_gm]

And I proposed and plan to do that very thing. I have the two amps he compared in the video. I plan to capture the output and perform listening tests. This was proposed on page one of this thread and I supported it. I could even conduct the test live for local people.

Amir, first of all, I really appreciate the work you've done in the past few years.

At first, I was excited to see what a blind test between two amps would reveal, but the thread is turning into something very nasty and unfortunate. I understand you take offence in the way GS discredited your work, because said work is obviously connected to your experience in the audio world and the reputation that has won you. Still, going into this blinded by emotions is probably not the right way to do things, as it muddies the waters and leads nowhere.

I suggest we all take a step back, perhaps close this thread so you, together with GS and maybe a couple other members (like solderdude, perhaps?) can talk in private about the experiment: set clear and measurable objectives, design a rigorous testing protocol, etc. After that, you could probably open a new thread with objective and well-structured information that's easier for the audio community to follow.

 

[amirm]

I have nothing to offer in private. I created this thread so that we collectively figure out a solution. That is getting done. If it is not exciting or what you expected it is not my issue. There is $1000 on the line plus reputation of schiit and its Magnius amp. If you can't help the please don't post.

 

[Geert]

I think "close-minded" is kind of ridiculous, though.

Unfortunately that's how a lot of other (more subjective) forums look at AS. They often don't understand what level of knowledge is available here. For real subjectivists everything is a believe and theirs is as valuable as yours.

 

[Thomas savage]

@amirm dose this guy have millions of YouTube subscribers? If so fair enough if not your only success here is to elevate a random dude on the Internet to a level of importance and significance he dosnt warrant. In doing so create quite a mess that's almost impossible to manage.

I really do hope this guy has millions of subscribers and all this is worth it . At the moment it looks petty and obsessive on all sides with no real constructive intentions unless you call courting flame wars with random dudes on the Internet constructive but Maybe it is maybe It drives site trtraffic and picking fights with random nobdies is the way to promote audio science and research online .

Seems a bit of a turn off for the reasonable minded and a good way to keep us looking like a small band of obsessive nut jobs that are easily dismissed.

Love being wrong though

 

[Blaspheme]

Yes, I'm finding it a turn-off. Whether I'm reasonable minded or not is another question.

If a test is (still/back) on the table, then "we" can test the following claim made by GO in the video "this measures great, that measures great, those two measure great, that DAC and that DAC measure great, but they all sound different: measurements don't tell the full story ..."

So decide on which of those things you agree "measure great" and that should sound the same (in Amir's world) but sound different (in GO's world) and see if—via a procedurally valid blinded experiment—they do demonstrably sound different (or not). You'd have to work out whether the first part "all sound different" means you have to test them all, or whether you can lean toward the second part "measurements don't tell the full story" and just do a pair of devices (but personally I don't care about those details, or the amount of money on the table, so have at it).

 

[BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp]

@amirm a while back, you measured the following device:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...und-3-in-1-out-xlr-audio-switch-review.11062/

Would that be suitable as a switcher? It might help cut down on a lot of the potential issues @Pio2001 brought up earlier.

 

[Iving]

There is $1000 on the line plus reputation of schiit and its Magnius amp.

The $1000 I understand.

I don't understand why you are an apologist for Schiit, or a defender of Schiit's reputation.

How can you be an independent reviewer if that is what you are?

Do you wonder why sometimes it is thought/said that you have ulterior motives?

You carry out splendid measurement exercises.

If some "random dude" does something else, why do you take responsibility for it? [If you do, it is your choice, and nobody else's.]

In real life that is "Drama". On the Karpman Drama Triangle, you petition yourself as "Rescuer", and it creates all kinds of problems.

So what we have is Drama - not Science.

I say what I do not to be mischievous, but to further the cause of better circumstances in which to progress audio understandings.

 

[Blaspheme]

In real life that is "Drama". On the Karpman Drama Triangle, you petition yourself as "Rescuer", and it creates all kinds of problems.

Most interesting:

The motivations of the rescuer are the least obvious. In the terms of the triangle, the rescuer has a mixed or covert motive and benefits egoically in some way from being "the one who rescues". The rescuer has a surface motive of resolving the problem and appears to make great efforts to solve it, but also has a hidden motive to not succeed, or to succeed in a way in which they benefit.

That would point to the test not going ahead. I like the bit about the roles being dynamic, and changing as the drama unfolds. I'd definitely get back to the science-y part, if we are serious about it.

 

[PierreV]

In an indirect way, leaving aside the ego war and the one step forward, two-step back dance, this thread has been informative.

The discussions about the suitability of devices for the test raised the issue of relative noise (for example in the case of the AHB2 which is primarily a speakers amplifier), the impact of headphone choice, the impact of impedances on frequency response, etc...

Those are, of course, fair points to raise when money/reputations are on the line. However, that also means that there are tons of reasons (measurable - I guess, until proven otherwise) devices could sound different and would allow an AB test to be successful. By excluding devices from the test, even measurably transparent recommended ones, objectivists implicitly admit that sub-optimal pairings can lead to audible differences. (which, I repeat, could very probably be measured objectively)

And that is exactly the problem customers are facing. Pairing random "well measuring audibly transparent" devices doesn't always lead to equivalent sound.