• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Black Lion Revolution 2x2 Review (Audio Interface)

Promit

Active Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
197
Likes
523
Type C is actually fairly robust.
Not in a pro audio context it’s not. Just compare to an XLR or TRS cable and connector. But none of these devices are meant to stand up in that type of use. I’m betting the USB-C is board mounted as well, which is a sure sign of “meh” grade consumer build quality.

Neutrik has products for when a hardware designer wants to get serious. I assume others do as well. https://audioxpress.com/news/lockin...st-launched-it-in-new-mediacon-product-family
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
Is there any audio Interface that use USB 3? For data I can't see any benefit, The extra current could be nice for the headphone out tough?

We use USB3, but primarily for all the extra DSP processing channels we support on our devices. A typical audio interface won't need the bandwidth, but there is some potential to decrease latency with USB 3.1.
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
Not in a pro audio context it’s not. Just compare to an XLR or TRS cable and connector. But none of these devices are meant to stand up in that type of use. I’m betting the USB-C is board mounted as well, which is a sure sign of “meh” grade consumer build quality.

What USB connector is better for a USB interface? Please enlighten me and point me to the USB over XLR standard. PC mount connectors are not a sign of bad quality. I really just think you don’t know what you’re talking about.

This isn’t a pro audio device anyway, as you pointed out. However, knocking a USB device for using a USB connector is nonsensical. USB C is more robust than USB B.

This is a cheap two channel interface for home use. No one is going to use some waterproof Neutrik connector.
 
Last edited:

respice finem

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
1,867
Likes
3,775
Yeah, but I’m not sure it’s any worse than USB B connectors. I’ve seen those ripped off of boards too.
Old USB B, really? Who was the user, Shrek? :oops:
Or do you mean the slightly flimsy mini version that often comes with external hard drives?
 

Dave Tremblay

Member
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
415
Location
Boulder, CO
For what it's worth, the higher end of pro audio interfaces have been using type-C connectors for many years due to those connectors also being used for Thunderbolt-3. Personally, I like these connectors better than the Thunderbolt-2 Display Port or the USB Type-B connectors.

What I really don't like about Type-C is that lack of standards on cables. Also, the lack of markings on the Host and Device ports that state their capabilities.
 

respice finem

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
1,867
Likes
3,775
We use USB3, but primarily for all the extra DSP processing channels we support on our devices. A typical audio interface won't need the bandwidth, but there is some potential to decrease latency with USB 3.1.
SOT: Speaking of USB 3.1, the Gen2 seems to be 99% backwards compatible. My MB has 6 Gen1 ports and 2 Gen2 ports. Recently I plugged my RME ADI2-DAC into one of these (blindly because both are Type A) and Windows failed to recognize it. With Gen1 all is well. The RME is class compliant USB 2.0, but my HTPC has no USB 2.0 ports.
 
Last edited:

respice finem

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2021
Messages
1,867
Likes
3,775
...Neutrik has products for when a hardware designer wants to get serious...
The problem is, many of them just want to get cheaper ;) (looking at the 80s style connectors in AV receivers and such)...
The idea of the Neutrik Type C socket is effective and simple, but if it's 50 cents more expensive, 90% of devices won't have them.
 
Last edited:

Tks

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2019
Messages
3,221
Likes
5,494
For what it's worth, the higher end of pro audio interfaces have been using type-C connectors for many years due to those connectors also being used for Thunderbolt-3. Personally, I like these connectors better than the Thunderbolt-2 Display Port or the USB Type-B connectors.

What I really don't like about Type-C is that lack of standards on cables. Also, the lack of markings on the Host and Device ports that state their capabilities.

Believe some folks were talking about USB connector reliability simply in virtue of older Type-B connectors being more girthy, and more solid in virtue of the dimensions and contact surface interface quantity + thickness.

There is good reason also to assume wear-characteristics are more prone to sooner issues with connectivity (in the same manner every single one of my iPhones I've used, eventually have their connectors slowly start to lose the initial wonderful tolerance). Though iPhones don't use USB-C obviously.

I haven't look at the dimensions comparisons and things of that nature with surface contact with properly made USB-C interfacings. There seems to be an extreme variability on the market (for instance my Android phone's interfacing with it's stock cable is complete and utter dogshit, it's even somewhat wiggly, compared to my Macbook who's USB-C charging cable interfaces very sturdy and satisfyingly smooth with both the Macbook itself, as well as the USB-C terminated power-brick).

I feel as though most Type-B connectors from experience, have had FAR less variance with tolerances in all the devices used (mostly printers from my experience, and a few DACs obviously).

But if anyone is questioning the long term viability of USB-C in terms of wear cycles before it starts losing reliable connectivity, of that I have no idea compared to USB Type-B. Add on another list of things makers of these standards should demand from cable manufacturers and end-point interface suppliers. To me it just seems most people aren't getting the common solid physical satisfying connection with USB Type-B, instead they have to live with sometimes somewhat loose, or sometimes far too tight cable connections, so the wonder is how long would that hold up in use cases where swaps might be a daily occurrence or something.

EDIT: What I mean to conclude on is, if you rub up against the connector, or have some force applied against a cable connected to a USB-C connetor -- I'd place my bets that would snap off, sooner than a USB Type-B connection.
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
... EDIT: What I mean to conclude on is, if you rub up against the connector, or have some force applied against a cable connected to a USB-C connetor -- I'd place my bets that would snap off, sooner than a USB Type-B connection.

Maybe, but that's got a lot to do with panel design and how the connector is supported. Type B 2.0 receptacles are usually rated for far fewer mating cycles than Type C (1500 vs 10k minimums).
 

JeffGB

Active Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2019
Messages
229
Likes
328
Thanks for the great review, Amir! You saved me from a poor decision. My wife has my MOTU M4 and I won't be getting it back (she likes it), so I was looking for another interface and the Black Lion came up. This site has taught me to be suspicious of "modders" building digital equipment for "better" sound, so I held off. TBH I probably would have just purchased another M4 if they had been in stock.

Now I can either wait for more M4's to be made or choose something else. I really was hoping the Black Lion would be great but I already have an Apple dongle that provides that kind of performance. One of the few others left is the SSL 2+. I really just want an M4 with no IMD hump and an analog volume control :).
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
That is bad. $400 for that performance and a janky Thesycon driver? Absolutely not. At least with Audient the performance is better despite the wack-as-hell drivers.

The performance is not good, but I don't think Thesycon is janky. Despite whatever Amir's trouble with the drivers are, Thesycon is responsible for Microsoft's Windows 10 UAC 2.0 driver and also wrote a large percentage of the Windows drivers for any box you open with an XMOS chip in it. Perfect, no, but I've seen worse (cough *Focusrite* cough).
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
Pretty sure that is the case.

Any thoughts or plans to include a power consumption test for bus powered devices? I would be curious how many of these devices obey USB IF specs, or at least just to know so you can predict how fast you'll kill your laptop's battery life by using it.

Maybe a reasonable worst case, something like 192 kHz or higher sample rate while driving headphones or a test load?
 

chris719

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2019
Messages
373
Likes
423
SOT: Speaking of USB 3.1, the Gen2 seems to be 99% backwards compatible. My MB has 6 Gen1 ports and 2 Gen2 ports. Recently I plugged my RME ADI2-DAC into one of these (blindly because both are Type A) and Windows failed to recognize it. With Gen1 all is well. The RME is class compliant USB 2.0, but my HTPC has no USB 2.0 ports.

It should still work, I wonder if the Gen 2 ports are off a different controller and there are UEFI settings preventing it from working at High Speed. If it's AMD, the USB controller IP is licensed from ASMedia and it's probably never going to be 100% as good as Intel's XHCI controllers and drivers. They have made large strides, though - used to be barely usable trash.

The problem is, many of them just want to get cheaper ;) (looking at the 80s style connectors in AV receivers and such)...
The idea of the Neutrik Type C socket is effective and simple, but if it's 50 cents more expensive, 90% of devices won't have them.

Cost and single-source notwithstanding, I'm not convinced a locking solution is always good. I stopped using Neutrik locking jacks for headphones after pulling my stuff off my desk by forgetting I had headphones on. Since I'm not doing a live show I'd rather just have one cable disconnect rather than cause a mess.
 

paulraphael

Active Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
262
Likes
367
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Makers seem to stretch the definition of "pro." Regardless of the cable type, I don't know what kind of pro studio has use for a desktop 2-channel interface. The one I have is at a similar price (Focusrite Clarett 2pre) and seems designed for musicians with project / bedroom studios. I suspect that's the real market.
 

dfuller

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 26, 2020
Messages
3,340
Likes
5,064
The performance is not good, but I don't think Thesycon is janky. Despite whatever Amir's trouble with the drivers are, Thesycon is responsible for Microsoft's Windows 10 UAC 2.0 driver and also wrote a large percentage of the Windows drivers for any box you open with an XMOS chip in it. Perfect, no, but I've seen worse (cough *Focusrite* cough).
Yeah, the ASIO performance is... not great, IME. Lots of weird behavior that RME, Lynx, etc don't have. Focusrite also use a 3rd-party written driver though I don't know who by (it's not Thesycon).

Measure this https://prismsound.com/music_recording/products_subs/da2/da2_home.php
and show in numbers that this is not an outstanding converter.
I'd rather go and order BLA Revolution 2x2.

I dunno, -104dB or better THD+N is pretty good, and the massive amount of voltage output is also pretty useful in a pro situation.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom