Binaural audio + headphones = MAGIC

[tomelex]

Understand this:

A stereo system attempts to bring the event to your room, and its process is not natural, no sounds in nature are two point sources

A binaural system attempts to bring you to the event, and it is a natural process, you, your two ears, sitting in a spot listening

USE HEADPHONES!!!!!

OK, lets warm up to the idea with a simulation of 360 degrees of sound

OK, lets see the "dummy head"

OK, jack up the volume a bit and listen to this one

listen to the video in the top right corner, girl with guitar, its a great video too (sorry it will not imbed but worth clicking on)

https://vimeo.com/binauralairwaves

(1) Binaural recording has an equivalent listening experience in the real world, that is you sitting in a chair, without your head moving, and listening.

(2) Stereo recording has no equivalent listening experience in the real world, its all made up and requires brain processing power.

(1) and (2) are CRITICAL points to understand. If one does not understand this, one does not understand Stereo at all.

Allright then, here is some nice "stereo" to listen to, while it sounds good to us, note the loss of space and width and height and also how the stereo effect uses the same signal in both ears, but volume different, and reverb, to try to make it sound more interesting, but it in no way competes with binaural, it just can't. By the way, you may prefer this sound, but that is because it is what your ear/brain is used to, go back and listen to binaural stuff for a while then come back to this, you will get what I am talking about.

 

[fas42]

USE HEADPHONES!!!!!

Sorry, Tom, doesn't fly for me, at any level - the theory is great, but the experience is not there, for me at least. I tried it with "proper" cans, but the speaker thing was better, every time ...

 

[h.g.]

Sorry, Tom, doesn't fly for me, at any level - the theory is great, but the experience is not there, for me at least. I tried it with "proper" cans, but the speaker thing was better, every time ...

In order to work binaural needs the correct transfer function for the individual's ear, head and upper torso which the brain has learnt to use and the correct transfer function for the headphones in the position they are seated on the individuals head. What you get from recording using a dummy head can work for some individuals in terms of locking onto where sound is coming from but the tonal balance can still be off and will inevitably be so at low frequencies using headphones. But I would agree that hearing a working binaural system is likely to change a person's view of stereo.

You can sit in a chair and move your head with a head tracking system which have been available for quite a few years. Here is an example.

It has been possible to produce reasonably priced commercial binaural systems since the late 70s when integrated circuits got sorted out. Unfortunately the music industry has consistently demonstrated zero interest in high fidelity in any real sense and the demand from consumers does not seem to be there either. In some ways it is a bit baffling because the music would require releasing in a different format and that has usually been seen as an opportunity to print money by the music industry.

 

[fas42]

I've seen enough comments from others to be pretty sure that there will always be those who prefer speakers, no matter how "realistic" the cans are - I just happen to be one of those. In particular, I would want to be able move freely around the house while the music was playing, while still retaining a correct perspective on the distant sound - that is, I don't want the sound to "follow me".

Plus, the actual sensation of the headphones on my head quickly disturbs me - they would need be able to do a "perfect" disappearing act of themselves in a physical touch sense for me to be happy for more than a minimal time.

 

[h.g.]

I've seen enough comments from others to be pretty sure that there will always be those who prefer speakers, no matter how "realistic" the cans are - I just happen to be one of those.

I would agree that casual listening is substantially better over speakers but there are times when headphones are the only viable option. Most auralization tasks require the fidelity of binaural with stereo and/or speakers being unsuitable.

In particular, I would want to be able move freely around the house while the music was playing, while still retaining a correct perspective on the distant sound - that is, I don't want the sound to "follow me".

That is what head tracking gives you. The sound remains fixed on the front wall as you move. If implemented well the location will be a lot more stable than stereo images which degrade significantly as the relative distance from the two speakers changes the level and the angle from the forward axis changes the frequency response.

Plus, the actual sensation of the headphones on my head quickly disturbs me - they would need be able to do a "perfect" disappearing act of themselves in a physical touch sense for me to be happy for more than a minimal time.

I have yet to find any headphones that remain comfortable for more than an hour or so. I find all on ear headphones uncomfortable and yet some people can wear those same on ear headphones all day.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Ages ago in my teens, my first true stereo was with Koss headphones. My only speaker was mono, so headphones were the only way I could listen in stereo. But, over time, as the novelty wore off, I found the "inside your head" image to be tiresome and fatiguing when using ordinary commercial stereo recordings mixed for use with speakers. Binaural recordings might have mitigated that, if they were widely available, which they still are not. I assume there are binaural synthesis circuits today that can help minimize the issue, but I have no interest in going there vs. listening via normal speakers.

The only headphone system that would remotely be of interest to me today is the Smyth Realizer 8 system. That is amazing technology using DSP that calibrates your head transfer function and a specific room/system, permitting 8 channel playback from commercial stereo or Mch recordings via the normal 2-channel phones. It incorporates a head tracker, as well. It purportedly eliminates the inside your head sound, creating the illusion you are listening to speakers in the room you calibrated for, even if you are somewhere else. My understanding is that many pros use it for mastering film soundtracks without having to tie up the expensive mastering room.

It is around $4,000 including a pair of mid-level Stax cans. It has limited dealerships, so I have not yet had a chance to listen, but I still might someday. It has received very glowing reviews from Gary Reber in Widescreen Review. Kal Rubinson also commented very favorably in Stereophile, but he was put off by the usual inconveniences of the headphone experience.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Aside from abiding confusion of what constitutes natural listening and brain processing as well as the role played by head movement in all cases, the fundamental problems with binaural are (1) the discomfort associated with long term headphone/earphone use and (2) the virtual absence of recorded repertoire. The Smyth Realiser is a remarkable product but, imho, one that demonstrates the effective superiority of multichannel loudspeaker-based reproduction.

 

[TBone]

welcome Kal.

 

[amirm]

Yes, welcome indeed!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Binaural never worked for me. A little around far right or left. Otherwise everything moves up and into the middle of my head. Maybe with the right dummy head it would. I did finally find some phones that work a little better. Sony MDR 7510 headphones. Instead of going up and over with binaural it does go across the middle and I get a little bit of out of head imaging. The phones seem pretty good in other ways too. AKG phones got somewhat out of my head, but it was always something of an effect that was the same regardless of the recording.

The other thing I have done is listen over open back headphones several feet from speakers while speakers were also playing. That gives you the felt low end, and a spaciousness that pulls imaging out of my head nicely (probably due to the delay of the speakers being several feet away). Of course with few exceptions like an actual binaural recording I would prefer to just straight listen to the speakers.

 

[tomelex]

Headphone listening certainly is not for everybody. And we wall do hear differently. However, if you felt that listening to those binaural recordings put the music inside your head, perhaps try this.
Go get pill container maybe half full so you can shake it like a rattle. Now put it in your right hand and extend your arm out and start shaking it, and now bring it in shaking all the way to damn near touching your ear hole, now listen and you might find that from far away to close up, as you get closer, the sound is less out there and finally it is deep down in your ear canal and the sensation could be getting nearer the middle of your head. Now imagine shaking two pill bottles right at each ear hole, and guess what, those sounds are coming from more inside your head than you ever thought. It is natural, we just don't think about it, and true binaural recordings (while not perfectly adapted to your ear flaps and ear brain interface) are giving you outside sound too, but the speakers are very close to your ear holes, thus you rightly do hear sounds inside your head.

Shake the pill bottle over your head and then right at the back above your neck and centererd on your back head and notice where you hear the sounds now, yep, here appears to be sound also inside your head.

Essentially, bringing any sound in very close to your ears does that, but you all knew that already I am , well for some of you, sure.

For you guys that have foldable headphones, such as the hd 380 pro sennheizers, you can place them outside your ears and forward and turn them to be firing toward your ears, and yep, the sound will converge in your head, even with stereo.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Headphone listening certainly is not for everybody. And we wall do hear differently. However, if you felt that listening to those binaural recordings put the music inside your head, perhaps try this.
Go get pill container maybe half full so you can shake it like a rattle. Now put it in your right hand and extend your arm out and start shaking it, and now bring it in shaking all the way to damn near touching your ear hole, now listen and you might find that from far away to close up, as you get closer, the sound is less out there and finally it is deep down in your ear canal and the sensation could be getting nearer the middle of your head. Now imagine shaking two pill bottles right at each ear hole, and guess what, those sounds are coming from more inside your head than you ever thought. It is natural, we just don't think about it, and true binaural recordings (while not perfectly adapted to your ear flaps and ear brain interface) are giving you outside sound too, but the speakers are very close to your ear holes, thus you rightly do hear sounds inside your head.

Shake the pill bottle over your head and then right at the back above your neck and centererd on your back head and notice where you hear the sounds now, yep, here appears to be sound also inside your head.

Essentially, bringing any sound in very close to your ears does that, but you all knew that already I am , well for some of you, sure.

For you guys that have foldable headphones, such as the hd 380 pro sennheizers, you can place them outside your ears and forward and turn them to be firing toward your ears, and yep, the sound will converge in your head, even with stereo.

Yes, but the sounds far right and far left are the ones that stay out of my head. Move just a little toward center and it collapses to the top of inside my head. We hear height by comb filtering occurring between 6khz and 11 khz. Upper frequency comb filtering higher height perception. If you look at the distance from your ear lobe most headphone cones are, it looks to be likely some of it is comb filtering against your ear and the drivers. Which is why it hops right up to the top in your head (or at least in my head). Maybe I should experiment with sticking double ear pads on the phones and see if it lowers the image position. Might give an indication of how much that effect is happening.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Tomelex,

What can you tell us about these examples in the first post?

The first one worked really well for me in my MDR7510 phones. In DT880's and another set of phones either on the edge or top of my skull no in between. So is this one a simulation rather than a real recordings? If so what did they use for the simulation?

The second one with the piano and dummy head was not all in my head, but not very good for me with the MDR7510's and was the usual top of my skull with other phones.

The third one, the jazz, worked very nicely on the MDR7510's and not at all with others. This one reminded me of recordings I have made with a Jecklin disc. Pretty nice on the Sony phones and reasonably accurate with just a bit of a hole in the middle effect. Same over speakers with my Jecklin disc recordings btw. Just a bit of hole in the middle imaging.

Maybe some day they can do a quick laser scan of our ear lobe shape. Then do digital processing to optimize binaural for each person's ear shape. Binaural is the only method that can theoretically fully recreate the genuine article at your ears.

I do wish I knew what Sony did with the MDR7510's. They either were onto something or accidentally fit me. They were intended to replace the long standing studio reference 7506, but apparently it didn't take.

 

[tomelex]

Yes, but the sounds far right and far left are the ones that stay out of my head. Move just a little toward center and it collapses to the top of inside my head. We hear height by comb filtering occurring between 6khz and 11 khz. Upper frequency comb filtering higher height perception. If you look at the distance from your ear lobe most headphone cones are, it looks to be likely some of it is comb filtering against your ear and the drivers. Which is why it hops right up to the top in your head (or at least in my head). Maybe I should experiment with sticking double ear pads on the phones and see if it lowers the image position. Might give an indication of how much that effect is happening.

There are different ways we hear through headphones, so there is no right answer, my tests with friends years ago showed for some the image was nearer the front on inside their heads, for others the image was nearer the back insides of their heads, and some it was more toward he top of the inside of their heads. You do have to try my pill bottle shake test to determine the natural way your ear/brain system works, remember, when you do come in close to your nose or back of your head or almost into your ear hole, that is going to give you the best understanding of your unique hearing processes. Then, you can better accept what happens when you listen to headphones, as you kind of have no choice! However, there are external circuits that blend some of the left and right in various ways to get the image more outside your head as well.

If anything, just using the videos I posted above and comparing to the stereo recording at the end, you can easily understand the differences in presentation.

 

[tomelex]

Tomelex,

What can you tell us about these examples in the first post?

The first one worked really well for me in my MDR7510 phones. In DT880's and another set of phones either on the edge or top of my skull no in between. So is this one a simulation rather than a real recordings? If so what did they use for the simulation?

The second one with the piano and dummy head was not all in my head, but not very good for me with the MDR7510's and was the usual top of my skull with other phones.

The third one, the jazz, worked very nicely on the MDR7510's and not at all with others. This one reminded me of recordings I have made with a Jecklin disc. Pretty nice on the Sony phones and reasonably accurate with just a bit of a hole in the middle effect. Same over speakers with my Jecklin disc recordings btw. Just a bit of hole in the middle imaging.

Maybe some day they can do a quick laser scan of our ear lobe shape. Then do digital processing to optimize binaural for each person's ear shape. Binaural is the only method that can theoretically fully recreate the genuine article at your ears.

I do wish I knew what Sony did with the MDR7510's. They either were onto something or accidentally fit me. They were intended to replace the long standing studio reference 7506, but apparently it didn't take.

That first video is called 3D music, and is mixed in audacity, if you follow the different paths in the link below it might get you there to where he shows how to do it. 3D is obviously not true binaural, however, I agree with you it would be cool if someone could laser scan our pinnae and then apply some algorithims to any song and produce a more realistic experience whether phones or speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ears4D...8ef01c-0000-2093-a156-001a113cfb0a&feature=iv

you can also search 3D music or 3D sound to get to more 3D stuff.

 

[tomelex]

They use processors to convert regular stereo to binaural or to so called 3D, this recording, with headphones gets the 3D right, highly recommended for those of you who wish there was more to plain old stereo.......by the way, this is for folks that not only use headphones but like headphones, not necessary to tell me you don't listen or like headphones, this is not that thread, enjoy with your best headphones and the volume cranked a bit

If the song did not do much for you ( I did remind it is a processed to 3D) then listen starting at 7:30 to this

 

[andreasmaaan]

Standard binaural gives me left, right, and behind, but never the most important location, and the only one provided by stereo: front.

@tomelex i agree with the gist of what you say in theory, however.

 

[Heers2]

We've been through this before - multiple companies went bankrupt in the 90s attempting to sell this technology to consumers. Guess what.. nobody likes it except for the 1-200 people on youtube.

Mainstream listeners (the ones who pay artists bills) don't want to hear instruments in a "space".. it's why hard-panning mixing has died out.

 

[pwjazz]

In order to work binaural needs the correct transfer function for the individual's ear, head and upper torso which the brain has learnt to use and the correct transfer function for the headphones in the position they are seated on the individuals head.

Yes! My typical experience of binaural recordings involves instruments that sound too ethereal and sounds that seem to emanate from behind me rather than in front or to the sides. Very rarely do I attend concerts with my back to the performers, so the binaural experience fails to achieve fidelity for me.