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techsamurai

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So the flagship AVR gains 2 fans (from 4 to 6), and 10 lbs transformer weight, and 50% more PS block capacitors! That, along with a second/or third, from the top of ESS Sabre's DAC IC, and XLR subwoofer outputs that can be re-assigned for use with the LCR channels. This could be a one box solution that can compete with separate AVC/Poweramp in terms of performance, not just convenience. Denon might actually be able to justify the price increase over the AVR-X8500HA based on the info provided on that webinar.
Are 6 fans reasonable? What are the capacitors at?
 

peng

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Are 6 fans reasonable? What are the capacitors at?

I can't comment on that, but their engineers/designers should know better. The capacitors are rated 80 V, 85 deg C., 33,000 uf each, there are two.

You can see the photos of the caps and transformer if you click on the link to the AVSForum post:


block-capacitors-png.3397612
 

GalZohar

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Oh interesting, you can have "directional" bass now (16:30), haven't heard about that functionality. But bass below 100 Hz is pretty omnidirectional, so I wonder how useful that is.

Not sure at all how useful that is, that's definitely not what is commonly recommended. But as more expensive systems enable something similar and more, and seems to be that some people believe that's actually useful, I'm guessing they just went with something that will enable those who believe it's a useful feature to buy these AVRs rather than the more expensive alternatives that would be required for use of such a feature. I would love to hear any proof of a case where "directional bass" actually provides a real benefit rather than "benefit" that only "exists" in sighted testing...

For those with X3800's the step up in total cost, of purchasing DLBC (or ART ?) - takes the whole AVR up to a different price category....

It makes perfect sense for the Flagship model(s?) - where the Dirac licences are a smaller proportion of the total cost.

But a year or 2 ago, the X3700 was around US$1200 I believe... (now substantially more @ US$1700 ) - the addition of a full multisub DLBC licence would be circa $800... taking the AVR price from $1700 to US$2500 - that is a big step up.

DL on its own would be very difficult to justify, given DL and Audyssey have very similar capabilities and Audyssey is already included.

DLBC.... yes it brings added value, but is it enough value for most of us? (who may already be stretching budgets for the base US$1700 !)

DL-ART being a complete paradigm shift to the table - it may be able to justify the additional $$ in a way that DLBC cannot...

It will be interesting to see Masimo's strategy going forward - especially if Onkyo extends its offerings into the DLBC / ART space /Pricerange

Still way cheaper than other DLBC alternatives, so if performance is more than good enough, the fact the Dirac+DLBC license is a significant part of the cost isn't, by itself, a bad thing, considering the final result.
 

peng

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Not sure at all how useful that is, that's definitely not what is commonly recommended. But as more expensive systems enable something similar and more, and seems to be that some people believe that's actually useful, I'm guessing they just went with something that will enable those who believe it's a useful feature to buy these AVRs rather than the more expensive alternatives that would be required for use of such a feature. I would love to hear any proof of a case where "directional bass" actually provides a real benefit rather than "benefit" that only "exists" in sighted testing...



Still way cheaper than other DLBC alternatives, so if performance is more than good enough, the fact the Dirac+DLBC license is a significant part of the cost isn't, by itself, a bad thing, considering the final result.

I would think that for those who use small bookshelf speakers for the surround channels may find the directional feature useful, as that will allow them to use higher crossover settings such as 120 - even 150 Hz, without worrying about the bass being audibly localized.
 

chych7

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Still way cheaper than other DLBC alternatives, so if performance is more than good enough, the fact the Dirac+DLBC license is a significant part of the cost isn't, by itself, a bad thing, considering the final result.

Audyssey + miniDSP + MultiSubOptimizer (+$300 or so) would be the cheaper alternative, if one is up for a more hands on approach. DLBC also has its limitations, like not being able to handle different types of subs with different capabilities (for example I have 3 subs, one is a mid-bass sub, and miniDSP/MSO integrates it well). It's not even clear that Dirac is actually better than Audyssey (more discussion in the Audyssey vs. Dirac thread), but the market perception demands it so Masimo went the Dirac route instead of further developing Audyssey's capabilities.

I would think that for those who use small bookshelf speakers for the surround channels may find the directional feature useful, as that will allow them to use higher crossover settings such as 120 - even 150 Hz, without worrying about the bass being audibly localized.
I'd think that someone getting an X3800 level of AVR would also have a good set of speakers to go with it...
 

GalZohar

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MSO can't (practically) integrate subs with mains, though, so you're still left with basic delay integration only (same as Audyssey and basic Dirac).
 

chych7

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MSO can't (practically) integrate subs with mains, though, so you're still left with basic delay integration only (same as Audyssey and basic Dirac).

What do you mean? It has a subs+mains integration flow, which I use and get smooth response from subs to L/C/R (but not surrounds), even by only adjusting EQ/delay on the subs. This does a far better job than Audyssey alone. Yes DLBC has the all pass crossover which can adjust across all the different speakers, so that would be an advantage, but MSO still can do a reasonable job.
 

Chromatischism

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Absolutely and look at the newly announced Sony AZ5000ES. 43lbs, $2,200. Does anyone know how much power the Denon 6700h delivers into 5-7 channels continuous at 0.1% THD? It costs $3,300 so it better not deliver the same power or less than the 5000ES.

I hope the 5000 is a top-of-the-line AVR because that's the correct price point.

If the new 5000ES is as powerful as the old one, we're looking at 105 watts into 7 channels which is Marantz SR8015 territory so bye, bye Cinema 40 and Cinema 50. Even the Cinema 60 may struggle against the equally priced Sony 3000 that weighs 50% more. They also have 5 year warranties like Denon and Marantz used to.
Do you really value an AVR based on how heavy it is and how many watts it can produce to surround channels? So features and EQ don't factor in at all?
 

techsamurai

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I'd think that someone getting an X3800 level of AVR would also have a good set of speakers to go with it...
A lot better speakers than they used to be when the 3700H sold for $1,200 and had the better DAC. Now with Dirac, that thing can be nearly double.
 

GalZohar

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What do you mean? It has a subs+mains integration flow, which I use and get smooth response from subs to L/C/R (but not surrounds), even by only adjusting EQ/delay on the subs. This does a far better job than Audyssey alone. Yes DLBC has the all pass crossover which can adjust across all the different speakers, so that would be an advantage, but MSO still can do a reasonable job.

What does it do to integrate the mains without being able to apply any filters to them?
 

Chromatischism

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I would think that for those who use small bookshelf speakers for the surround channels may find the directional feature useful, as that will allow them to use higher crossover settings such as 120 - even 150 Hz, without worrying about the bass being audibly localized.
That was my thought too for a use case. But having delays and EQ optimized for multi-sub will seriously interfere with their performance when called upon for redirected bass to play alone. Granted I have no experience with it yet, but I just don't see how "directional" redirected bass can coexist with summed LFE.
 

techsamurai

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Do you really value an AVR based on how heavy it is and how many watts it can produce? So features and EQ don't factor in at all?

I don't know how to answer that. There's definitely correlation between weight and quality - I think you'll agree with that when it comes to Class A/B, right?

Watts are in conjunction with THD and I look at 0.1%. Watts by themselves would be similar to Acceleration and Top Speed of a vehicle. Bursts would be acceleration and Max watts would be top speed.

Watts with THD are sort of the car's handling - essentially the maximum speed that it can take corner at before you fly off the road.

But those things are second to sound quality which I would refer to as the car's balance (understeer/oversteer).

What other features should I be taking into account? Porthole indicator for those with 20/5 vision or binoculars sitting by their coffee table? 3rd/4th HDMI output for those with 4 TVs? Gold-plated optical connection? 5th toe?
 

Chromatischism

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I don't know how to answer that. There's definitely correlation between weight and quality - I think you'll agree with that when it comes to Class A/B, right?

Watts are in conjunction with THD and I look at 0.1%. Watts by themselves would be similar to Acceleration and Top Speed of a vehicle. Bursts would be acceleration and Max watts would be top speed.

Watts with THD are sort of the car's handling - essentially the maximum speed that it can take corner at before you fly off the road.

But those things are second to sound quality which I would refer to as the car's balance (understeer/oversteer).

What other features should I be taking into account? Porthole indicator for those with 20/5 vision or binoculars sitting by their coffee table? 3rd/4th HDMI output for those with 4 TVs? Gold-plated optical connection? 5th toe?
It could be the most powerful, lowest distortion AVR ever produced, and if it doesn't have good room correction and all the features packed into the better AVRs like D+M does, I would not be interested.
 

FrantzM

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It could be the most powerful, lowest distortion AVR ever produced, and if it doesn't have good room correction and all the features packed into the better AVRs like D+M does, IT would not be interesting.
I apologize for editing your post , just a bit.

Peace.
 

techsamurai

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It could be the most powerful, lowest distortion AVR ever produced, and if it doesn't have good room correction and all the features packed into the better AVRs like D+M does, I would not be interested.
Fair enough - Room correction is important. I don't disagree.

What are the other features do AVRs like D+M offer?
 

Steve Dallas

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Audyssey + miniDSP + MultiSubOptimizer (+$300 or so) would be the cheaper alternative, if one is up for a more hands on approach. DLBC also has its limitations, like not being able to handle different types of subs with different capabilities (for example I have 3 subs, one is a mid-bass sub, and miniDSP/MSO integrates it well). It's not even clear that Dirac is actually better than Audyssey (more discussion in the Audyssey vs. Dirac thread), but the market perception demands it so Masimo went the Dirac route instead of further developing Audyssey's capabilities.


I'd think that someone getting an X3800 level of AVR would also have a good set of speakers to go with it...
Budget is not the only determining factor in choosing surround speakers. Room layout, room size, family opinion, etc. are all factors. I am stuck with smallish in-walls, for example, and I can afford much better.
 

multisport4me

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Audyssey + miniDSP + MultiSubOptimizer (+$300 or so) would be the cheaper alternative, if one is up for a more hands on approach. DLBC also has its limitations, like not being able to handle different types of subs with different capabilities (for example I have 3 subs, one is a mid-bass sub, and miniDSP/MSO integrates it well). It's not even clear that Dirac is actually better than Audyssey (more discussion in the Audyssey vs. Dirac thread), but the market perception demands it so Masimo went the Dirac route instead of further developing Audyssey's capabilities.


I'd think that someone getting an X3800 level of AVR would also have a good set of speakers to go with it...

Strange. I would think even very good speakers can sound like crap in some rooms. Hence the whole point of "room EQ" platforms like Audyssey, ARC, Dirac in the first place. Dollar amounts aside - good speakers are essential but everybody has different limitations in their set ups. Well...most people do. Not everybody hires a home theater design company to built a dedicated room, etc. Many of us retrofit or find a way to get in the game in the rooms we have.

Also, Audyssey is free to those that buy D&M processors/AVRs. I would think that freemium version is what 98% of those buying the lower end models from Best Buy are using...if at all. MultEQ-X is largely a development effort by Audssey to "bring new features direct to customers" without being slowed down by D&M baking those advanced features into the hardware. To me, it is a blatant attempt to try to capture the love again with those of us that once bought their Pro version and to attempt to compete with Dirac. I'm pleased to see them trying to get back in the game...albeit, I think they'll never catch up at this point. Dirac is the leading innovator now and simply has momentum in the high end with nerds like us. Why wouldn't Masimo, who is also trying to reestablish their brands as the market's "reference" AVR/prepro company want to exploit Dirac's momentum? Frankly, if I'm paying $7k for a prepro I don't mind spending another 5%-10% for Dirac with DBLC and don't expect it to be backed in or free with the system. If you want baked in - buy a Storm Audio and you'll have it all - and you'll pay 3x-4x as much for the pleasure.
 

dlaloum

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Strange. I would think even very good speakers can sound like crap in some rooms. Hence the whole point of "room EQ" platforms like Audyssey, ARC, Dirac in the first place. Dollar amounts aside - good speakers are essential but everybody has different limitations in their set ups. Well...most people do. Not everybody hires a home theater design company to built a dedicated room, etc. Many of us retrofit or find a way to get in the game in the rooms we have.

Also, Audyssey is free to those that buy D&M processors/AVRs. I would think that freemium version is what 98% of those buying the lower end models from Best Buy are using...if at all. MultEQ-X is largely a development effort by Audssey to "bring new features direct to customers" without being slowed down by D&M baking those advanced features into the hardware. To me, it is a blatant attempt to try to capture the love again with those of us that once bought their Pro version and to attempt to compete with Dirac. I'm pleased to see them trying to get back in the game...albeit, I think they'll never catch up at this point. Dirac is the leading innovator now and simply has momentum in the high end with nerds like us. Why wouldn't Masimo, who is also trying to reestablish their brands as the market's "reference" AVR/prepro company want to exploit Dirac's momentum? Frankly, if I'm paying $7k for a prepro I don't mind spending another 5%-10% for Dirac with DBLC and don't expect it to be backed in or free with the system. If you want baked in - buy a Storm Audio and you'll have it all - and you'll pay 3x-4x as much for the pleasure.
Worth keeping in mind that from the late aughties onwards, Audyssey already had all the features of Multeq-X in their pro kit software - certain AVR's and Prepro's were "pro capable" and custom installers could then apply a pro-kit licence, and tune them using the pro kit (with calibration mic etc..) and the accompanying software.

All they did with MultEQ-X is "pretty up" the user interface, and provide access via the current API's to the D&M AVR's.

Which is to say, no, it isn't new.
 

Andysu

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Can someone please explain to me why Denon is adding more internal amplifiers to the new upcoming flagship AVR? Who's demanding this? Market, customers?
Is this for bragging rights? I mean how many customers will use 15 speakers? Or better yet, how many speakers can you fit in normal size room? If you have a dedicated theater room to fit all those speakers, it will have to be on a larger size, and depending on the type of speakers used, this AVR may not do the "best" job of powering them to THX reference levels.

Denon AVR-A1H

Features

  • 8K and 4K/120 on all inputs and 2 outputs - total 7/3 HDMI
  • 15.4 channel surround sound support
  • 4 independent RCA and XLR subwoofer outputs
  • Supports up to 9.1.6 Dolby Atmos speaker layout
  • DTS:X Pro, Imax Enhanced, Auro 3D
  • HEOS Built-in, with WiFi and Bluetooth
  • Incredible configuration flexibility with 15.4 channel processing capability and Pre-Amplifier mode
  • Dirac Live Upgradability
  • New and modern HD GUI TV user interface for setup and daily use

Price: $6,499​

avc-x8500h was around £3k the 8k video boards are around £450 the rest of the a1h seems bit extremely overpriced ? a modification for CB radio for extra bands or 40 channels of triple low/high on small circuit board less then £60 and that's 40 more channels for the upgrade , 40 more channels . and denon offers 2 more channels and possibly allows the , a1h to run

front wide L - L C R - front wide R
side sur L side sur R
rear sur L rear sur R

atmos format
overhead1 L overhead1 R

overhead2 L overhead2 R

overhead3 L overhead3 R

so with the above ^ are all those channels active without trading off two channels like the avc-x8500h , if want to use front wide L R the avr trades off the rear back surround ?
the front wide is rubbish a few little sounds i heard when testing with opening " midway " atmos , very disappointing re-recording mixing atmos

i guess overhead 4 is assignment switching for upper centre and auro middle upper centre overhead
overhead4 overhead4

i'd rather have one my CB radios modified to quadruple high band and low band , but no point today hardly anyone transmits down on these low bands nearer 24Mhz or 29Mhz pointless just ham uses up there and most of them are boring like most audiophiles are

so see my point ? so see my point ?

why the silly extreme prices for more of this " rubbish immersive " for rubbish woke movies that calm they are " storytelling " end up being woke rubbish like , top gun mavrick , worst boring disappointing Dolby atmos sound mix to come around in 36 years ? 36 years ?

more should be focused on below surround all this overhead sound has been around since 1969 70mm cinerema gaumont/odeon bournemouth and experimental overhead surround at CIC/UCI tower park 10 plex m since 1989 .

where is below surround ? once that comes there be sort of no need for all this anymore

all these immersive formats are con . get us all buy a new avr that is totally rubbish now .

most of the sound formats on the denon avc-x8500h that i use are , ( multi ch stereo ) for sound testing alignment calibration as i can use REW and mute certain channels to align the sound with REW sound generator .

stereo mode hardly use it
dolby dsu is rubbish , centre has whooshy phasey ( yet when using proper Dolby pro logic on any of cinema processors i don't hear that flawed sound in the centre )
dts x , nev er will buy blu/4k with dts x again , mostly old movies are a scam they are cheap upmixes that sound like done in few hours rather than have access to the steam/tracks and spend months mixing , all new as its craft to do mixing with overhead surround , all " we " end up getting is woke-overhead scam , rip off , very disappointing .

dolby atmos hardly use it , hardly buy any new movies anymore and even old ones are just rubbish , cheap manual upmixes to sell the Dolby labs , atmos as cash cow . may as well call it , Dolby CowMos , Dolby MilkMos . fed up with the scamming by these cheap hollywood movie studios re-recording mixes . the trend for good decent Dolby mixes that was once called , DOLBY STEREO 35mmm or 70mm those mixes still wow me . the Dolby CowMos hardly wows me ?

only tiny % Dolby Atmos that wowed me out of 10 no - years , ten - no years , from opening to end credits has been , " Gravity " 2013 .
like , " superman the movie " 1978 theatrical 70mm was first ever 5.1 , no not that , " apocalypse now " dialogue mostly all dumped in the centre with tiny on-screen pans . the stereo surrounds aren't all that good . the LFE or baby boom on it not as good as , " superman the movie " which is a must listen to anyone that is old enough ? old enough ? anyone that saw 70mm back then or most cinemas would have only had 35mm still with the directional dialog on screen panning .

i not in the market for new Denon for sake of expensive 2 more channels that when e CB radio upgrade 40 extra channels . 40 . a trinnov32 with that extra box to expand the channels at greedy expense , i guess its such disappointing processor just like , storm-audio , sony , marantz , denon , yamaha , onkyo , anthem , and all the rest that are just copycatting the same more channels along the sidewalls speakers ->> OOOOOO and more overhead speakers -> OOOOOO and almost 0 zero for below surround ????? such a boring immersive format .

at least my THX cinema has below surround matrix which is more than a denon , trinnov even Dolby CP850
 

Flak

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DLBC also has its limitations, like not being able to handle different types of subs with different capabilities...
That's not my understanding...
 
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