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I preferred Dirac too though I only have to PC 2 channel version. However, you might have been misinformed by some old forum claims about "...Audyssey do nothing relevant in terms of time alignment...." that was based on some sort of misconceptions or hearsay from those original posters.
The fact is, they all measured time delays, not physical distances. Distance is what they show (Audyssey and YPAO) but are based on the time delay measurements, not the opposite way around that you seem to think it is. In some cases, the subwoofer distance may be longer, even much longer than the physical distance that could be due to the additional time delay introduced by active subwoofer's electronics (DSPs etc..). In general, if you run Audyssey properly (followed instructions to the letter), you should leave the displayed distance alone and not adjust them based on your measuring tape.
Thats some of the most stupid BS around. Every Room EQ software does time alignment.
Back in the day they only did time alignment and some small corrections because there wasn't enough processing power for more.
You hear this story about Dirac and their superior time aligment very often. It most likely is just marketing BS that gets thrown around to show the superior and more expensive choice they made in buying said product.
That "magic" claiming to differentiate between all the reflections is BS too since you physically can't discern those with just a single microphone.
The only system that really can map sounds and reflections is Trinnov with their 4 Microphone device:
Trinnov | Exclusive Sound Technologies from Trinnov Audio
Exclusive Digital Audio Processing, Immersive Sound, and Active Acoustics Technologies from Trinnov Audio
www.trinnov.com
Yes, they all do.
I don't think they do better speaker distance measurements than others. It's not a hard thing to do, so no reason to think they are special.
The better-claimed timing of Dirac is however how they optimize the step response of a speaker. This should in theory better align the individual speaker drivers, making them work more coherent. This obviously works only for a small listening area (unless you have a coaxial).
Or multiple measurements at different places.
From my understanding that doesn't work because you need to know from which direction at a single point the sound comes from.
Thats impossible for a single microphone.
You can do it with some 3D modeling if the software knows the exact microphone position, like "2nd measurement 30cm to left on the X axis".
But i don't know of any RoomEQ software that allows such detailed 3D modeling.
Isn't that like the audyssey midrange compensation just correcting a hardware flaw in the speaker that shouldn't be there in the first place?
Great question, I would love to know how they "optimize" the step response too. By my measurements main speakers only for the version I have, Dirac Live does seem to improve the impulse response based on the better looking REW plots vs Audyessey. I tried that in two rooms, similar differences in both. Audibly better or not is a different story.
Unless you have a point source, there is always a time alignment issue, because the drivers are not physically in the same position.
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I would phrase it more accurately as "telling the EQ not to boost my crossover directivity mismatch".
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When I have bought x3500h, it was for the price of today's x1700h. x3600-3700h did not bring any significant advancements imo, to justify an upgrade, while x3800h might do (kind of).
I have some money, but am probably not willing to go that route anymore. All i wanted is 5.1 (right now, Monitor Audio Silve 200), 7.1 max. Also, locally, I know noone, who has more than 7.1 setup. And from the local online community, I know exactly zero persons using something like multiple zones on their AVRs. Who the heck needs 7HDMIs? Game console max? All those dated connectors, dead DVD/BluRay, YPbPr etc.?
The concept of AVR is dated and most ppl just did not realise it. There definitely seems to be some mental division between the home users and professional integrators imo and those might value some separates anyway.
So - right now, I am torn between the upgrade to x3800h + e.g. pma-1700ne vs the x4800h/x6700h, or scrapping the solution altogether and going back to the stereo. I would not miss back channels at all, but I really got used to the center channel. I wonder if I am really weird, as I miss some 3.1 units on the market
What me and my wife like though, is the streaming with the Heos on AVR - for its convenience. We also have pma-600ne in our studio, and like BT streaming. So another option might be e.g. pma-1700ne + some iNode (BluOS), or something like Marantz 40n.
No, the MRC just accounts for the fact that with speakers that show a directivity mismatch in the XO region often show a dip in that region when measured in room. It has nothing to do with the phase distortion of the crossover that acts like an all pass filter.
But when you try to "correct" the crossover directivity mismatch you also change the directional behavior of the speaker or not?
But doesn't the crossover directivity mismatch change at different angles? When you have a "bubble" of multiple measuring positions and try to find the best compromise for all of them isn't it impossible to find a good compromise?
Maybe that explains why it always looks good on paper but doesn't actually work audibly?
I'm no expert in acoustics so please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. Audyssey's MRC is a feature to prevent boosting crossover dips and thus creating harsh sound. Whether you need to use it or not will depend on the speaker, so it's up to the user.
@Chromatischism Sorry i thought we talk about Dirac. Please ignore my post. Maybe a moderator can delete it?
No because directivity already is how the frequency response behaves at different angles.
It has nothing to do with the directivity mismatch. That cannot be solved via eq or other filters. A common used crossover in almost all passive speakers is an IIR filter that rotates the phase around the crossover region (like every minimum phase filter does). This is results the "distorted" step response. It can be solved by using FIR filters to correct the phase rotation at the XO. It is often confused with directivity issues but also a coax with an IIR crossover (like my passive KEF R3 here) has that kind of distorted step response. it is inherent with an IIR crossover. The directivity issue caused by the vertical displacement of the tweeter and woofer of a comman 2way speaker cannot be solved by any electronic measure. There is only one position where those add up correctly and are perfectly time aligned. With electronics you can only shift that position or narrow the directivity issues where the two drivers cancel out (via employing a steeper crossover).
Has the step response correction any disantvantages? There is the possibility of pre ringing but it's mostly very mild. There is some time delay but this is also only around some msecs since dirac does not apply FIR in the lower frequencies.
Has the step response correction any disantvantages? There is the possibility of pre ringing but it's mostly very mild. There is some time delay but this is also only around some msecs since dirac does not apply FIR in the lower frequencies.
The only system that really can map sounds and reflections is Trinnov with their 4 Microphone device:
Trinnov | Exclusive Sound Technologies from Trinnov Audio
Exclusive Digital Audio Processing, Immersive Sound, and Active Acoustics Technologies from Trinnov Audio
Exactly. I had the Sherwood R972 and it was superb. Very buggy HDMI implementation which failed but the sound field was great.
Sony has done a lot of work with 2D sound fields though. Their stereo microphones spaced apart 4-5 inches can act as a rangefinder. Knowing the speed of sound, the Sony receivers can detect angles for the different speakers relative to listening position. In other words, with a single microphone, if you drew a 10 ft circle around your listening position, there is no way for Dirac or Audyssey to know if your speakers are at 15 or 60 degree distance. All they can tell is distance.
With stereo microphones, you can triangulate.
The quad mic from Trinnov adds height information which allows true 3D triangulation.
Trinnov once allowed consumer receivers to have their software, and I wish they would consider an AVR in the sub $10k range and ideally sub $5k range. Trinnov can do it’s corrections at 24/96 so having the 24/48 limitation still lets them separate their flagships and budgets
The Sony HT-A9 is great technology that would work in a HT AVR, but Sony like Samsung spend money on audio according to the whims of the day. The HT-A9 is a wireless HT in a box with four Atmos enabled satellites. What is interesting is that the satellites all have stereo microphones. This lets the microphone fire a signal to the ceiling and measure the return (how far away the speaker is from the ceiling) and theoretically that means you have 8 microphones in the room. So if the speakers can determine their location within each other and some estimates of height, they can do a really good job with sound field processing.
The theory and reality is that it gives you a great result within the constraints of the actual speakers themselves.
Since there is no microphone at the listening position, Sony has a menu item to let you adjust a slider-like setting to shift the sound field left or right to center the image. I don’t know if it also lets you tune your sitting position relative to the front/back.
4800 up $400 now, glad I got my 4700 when I did.
I'm sure not pleased about them, but absurd?
Like everyone-thing in this world they have to pay the cost of doing business
which continues to skyrocket every day.
I got 2 bricks of Pecorino Romano cheese here right now.
One I bought at Publix for $11.99lb about 2 months ago.
I bought a second, same exact cheese, store, everything, last week for $15.99lb !!!
US Fuel prices alone have doubled since 1-2021
Fuel price crashed hard in 2020, were still abnormally low in Jan 2021.
A better comparison is precovid prices. August 2019 price was $2.71. Aug 2022 it was $4.09. (BTW, these are prices averaged across all gasoline grades, including 'premium'). That's a 1.5x difference. For an even longer historical perspective, we're paying ~$0.25 more per gallon than we paid in mid-2014 (price then was $3.75) and a little less than mid 2008 ($4.14, a 30-year high until we surpassed it this year after Russia invaded Ukraine).
As a general rule, people have short memories and are easy to outrage.
Strange. Other than for subwoofers (where physical distance is more often not necessarily what you go by), Audyssey XT32 over years and different models has been pretty spot-on calculating real distances for my 5.1 setups. Verified using a tape measure! I've been 'lucky' I guess that the delay distances actually correlate well with physical distances in my setups.
Now, there seems to be some recent controversy whether those distances are accurately employed by the Audyssey DRC, but that's another issue.....
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