Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[jhaider]

I'd encourage you and others to spend some time messing with MultEQ-X to learn its capabilities.

Why? They didn’t even bother to release a proper macOS version (though they initially promised such). I don’t spend any more time with lesser computers than I have to. Basically I have to get paid for every tenth of an hour or the capability has to be well over and above what’s available without the hassle (e.g. VituixCAD). Nothing I’ve seen in the various writeups and videos I saw after its release indicate a material value add over the iOS app to me or basically anything worth the hassle of windows. Also I frankly detest the licensing terms.

My plan for an end-game processor (without spending Trinov money) when our new house is built was the SDP-55 when it was announced. However, after following the 400 page thread on AVS forum, the wind was sort of taken out of the sails on that idea. One of the primary features that intrigued me--Logic16--apparently still doesn't exist in any meaningful way.

I agree, the lack of progress on Logic16 is disappointing. The two value adds for SDP-5x were supposed to be Logic16 as an upmixer and Dante. It’s not clear to me Dante works either.

It looks like it'll do everything I could get out of the JBL and save me a boatload of money in the process.

It does look like the future Denon above will have an even lower price than HTP-1 when fully equipped, assuming the future Denon can be equipped with multisub DLBC. That’s a positive development for consumers.

 

[dlaloum]

They have to move to class D.
And / or just being a pre/pro.
But currently a pre/pro costs x times more than an integrated AVR... to remove the amps.

Used to, but the last 4 to 5 years it has started to turn around - the prepro's from Onkyo have been cheaper than the equivalent AVR (they only release prepro's for TOTL - so that means it isn't cheap either way!)

I think I noted the same thing from some of the other brands too - perhaps enough people remarked about what a ripoff that practice was, and that under those circumstances they would prefer to use an AVR as prepro... so marketing sat up and paid attention... they were losing out on sales of matching amps with prepros, the total $ for which was higher than the equivalent AVR... because they were overpricing the prepro... (they could probably still overprice the amp and get away with it...)

 

[Jon AA]

Why?

Well, it may help keep you from making misstatements about what Audyssey does or doesn't do, so there's that. Audyssey has sort of been a black box to people for many years, a lot of what it does and how it does it is not very well documented or explained. It wasn't until I got MultEQ-X that I could actually see what it was doing and how it was doing it. Understanding those things helps one leverage them to get the most out of it (along with all the added configurability that simply wasn't available before).

That said, the Dirac option on this new line means they're no longer asking somebody to spend thousands and make a long term commitment to only using Audyssey. Choice is good.

The cooling in the AVRs is lacking and cannot support high current and high power output for extended periods of time. It's a weak point.

A cheaply, easily fixable one. I've been using one of these on top of my Marantz for years: https://acinfinity.com/component-co...8Jj1AhPy5jvQDaZqPqJOp5CZ5d8VdWQsaAi2-EALw_wcB

Problem fixed.

 

[bo_knows]

Well, it may help keep you from making misstatements about what Audyssey does or doesn't do, so there's that. Audyssey has sort of been a black box to people for many years, a lot of what it does and how it does it is not very well documented or explained. It wasn't until I got MultEQ-X that I could actually see what it was doing and how it was doing it. Understanding those things helps one leverage them to get the most out of it (along with all the added configurability that simply wasn't available before).

That said, the Dirac option on this new line means they're no longer asking somebody to spend thousands and make a long term commitment to only using Audyssey. Choice is good.

A cheaply, easily fixable one. I've been using one of these on top of my Marantz for years: https://acinfinity.com/component-co...8Jj1AhPy5jvQDaZqPqJOp5CZ5d8VdWQsaAi2-EALw_wcB

Problem fixed.

From one of the reviewers:

Placed my new T8 between a 5 channel power amplifier and an A / V processor in an open rack. It works well, I hear noise even at the minimum fan speed, but it is acceptable for watching movies and gaming. For music, I can't recommend it because of the noise. Maybe I’ll get used to it. Again, my rack is open. It gives a very strong interference to ...Read More

If true, a no go solution for me.

 

[Jon AA]

Not my experience at all. When my room is as dead silent as it gets, I can't hear it on it's lowest setting (where it spends 95% of its time). I can hear it when it jumps up to the second power level, only when it jumps settings and only when no content is playing. The only time it starts making any sort of "noise" that's objectionable, is in the higher power levels (3-6). The only time I've found those levels to be needed, is in the summer if you have no A/C and ambient room temp goes to 80+.

 

[peng]

From one of the reviewers:

Placed my new T8 between a 5 channel power amplifier and an A / V processor in an open rack. It works well, I hear noise even at the minimum fan speed, but it is acceptable for watching movies and gaming. For music, I can't recommend it because of the noise. Maybe I’ll get used to it. Again, my rack is open. It gives a very strong interference to ...Read More

If true, a no go solution for me.

I use the much cheaper Infinity 5V usb fans. They are much quieter than the T8, not audible from 11 ft at the lowest speed and still cool my avr-x4400h enough. The T8 is better looking though.

 

[jhaider]

Well, it may help keep you from making misstatements about what Audyssey does or doesn't do, so there's that.

What the hell are you talking about? Please point out ONE “misstatement” I’ve made regarding Audyssey. If you look at my Denon AVR and Marantz AVP reviews you’ll see I have thoroughly documented the performance of the Audyssey suite, frankly probably more so than anyone else in their whole multi-decade history.

Audyssey has sort of been a black box to people for many years, a lot of what it does and how it does it is not very well documented or explained.

Which is why I measured it!

Bottom line is Audyssey does a very good job of matching a target curve for individual subsections (speakers, subs). I guess some people allege bum mics but all three of the ones I’ve used have yielded sound power curves that closely matched the target curve. Unfortunately the standard target curves are terrible, but can be fixed in the iOS app. The big flaw in Audyssey’s approach is treating bass managed channels as separate subsystems (subs, speakers) rather than as the single channel they are. (Dirac pre DLBC shares this flaw.) The “SubEQ” approach to combining two subs is crude (level match over some frequency and “time align,” then EQ the sum, as opposed to exploiting level and time as additional variables to improve performance) is best described as “better than nothing, probably,” They don’t have an approach for 3 or 4 subs.

 

[ryanosaur]

I use the front-venting Aircom t-10 because my first placement for my SR6012 was in a cabinet.
I would not recommend the front venting unit unless it is the only option.
That said, It isn't that disruptive at the lowest levels.
I intend to change to the t-8 in the near future, or the other directional fan they offer like this:

MULTIFAN S2, Quiet USB Cooling Blower, 120mm

Your source to create smart growing systems with components including advance grow tents, inline fans, clip-on fans, LED grow lights, and UIS™ controllers.

acinfinity.com

 

[Vacceo]

What the hell are you talking about? Please point out ONE “misstatement” I’ve made regarding Audyssey. If you look at my Denon AVR and Marantz AVP reviews you’ll see I have thoroughly documented the performance of the Audyssey suite, frankly probably more so than anyone else in their whole multi-decade history.




Which is why I measured it!

Bottom line is Audyssey does a very good job of matching a target curve for individual subsections (speakers, subs). I guess some people allege bum mics but all three of the ones I’ve used have yielded sound power curves that closely matched the target curve. Unfortunately the standard target curves are terrible, but can be fixed in the iOS app. The big flaw in Audyssey’s approach is treating bass managed channels as separate subsystems (subs, speakers) rather than as the single channel they are. (Dirac pre DLBC shares this flaw.) The “SubEQ” approach to combining two subs is crude (level match over some frequency and “time align,” then EQ the sum, as opposed to exploiting level and time as additional variables to improve performance) is best described as “better than nothing, probably,” They don’t have an approach for 3 or 4 subs.

So all things considered, if a high number of speakers (let´s say a 7.2/4.4) is involved, better go Dirac than Audyssey?

 

[TheAVInsider]

They don’t have an approach for 3 or 4 subs.

Confused why you ended on that note, because actually they do, unless you're talking about a different "they".

 

[Sal1950]

They don’t have an approach for 3 or 4 subs.

Somethings coming, the new Marantz TOTL pre/pro has 4 sub outs?

So all things considered, if a high number of speakers (let´s say a 7.2/4.4) is involved, better go Dirac than Audyssey?

Between the 2, yes TOTL Dirac control is great but expensive.
DLBC is $500 alone.

 

[Vacceo]

Somethings coming, the new Marantz TOTL pre/pro has 4 sub outs?

Between the 2, yes TOTL Dirac control is great but expensive.
DLBC is $500 alone.

Luckily I´m not buying electronics right now and I can wait for a couple years. By then, the answer could be different. Audyssey may have catch up or Dirac can be even further ahead.

 

[Sal1950]

Luckily I´m not buying electronics right now and I can wait for a couple years. By then, the answer could be different. Audyssey may have catch up or Dirac can be even further ahead.

Personally I feel AudysseyX is the equal Dirac and they're both always playing the upgrade game so "what's best" can change next week. Like so much else in HiFi the winds are controlled by a lot of myth and perception.
D-M was kind of forced into the current move by Dirac being the current fav posterboy product.
The average receiver buyer will want no part of ether's TOTL, too complicated, the learning curve is too steep. Only the enthusiasts like us here even understand the most of it.
Then there's also better, even more complicated stuff out there if you want a real headache. LOL
I just got my new Denon X4700H but I'm staying with the $20 Editor app, at least for now.

 

[Vacceo]

Most users do not have the luxury of a wellspring of knowledge about any of those systems we do over here.

 

[GXAlan]

Personally I feel AudysseyX is the equal Dirac and they're both always playing the upgrade game so "what's best" can change next week. Like so much else in HiFi the winds are controlled by a lot of myth and perception.
D-M was kind of forced into the current move by Dirac being the current fav posterboy product.

Agree 100%. The talk about Dirac mixing IIR/FIR versus Audyssey doing FIR only is all theoretical, like AC line conditioning or differences in speaker cable capacitance.

Audyssey patents are owned by Sound United so no one else can use it. The on-AVR presets are not as good as the app/Ratbuddysey or the fancy MultEQ-X.

Once the current generation of AVRs allowed multiple Audyssey presets and full control of the target curve, it sort of makes the setup very competitive with the very best.

 

[retro]

Audyssey patents are owned by Sound United

This is something that made me think... Didn't I read somewhere, years ago (?), that Denon bought Audyssey..?!?
Am I wrong..?!?

Still, they allowed Dirac on their AVR/AVP's..?!?

 

[dlaloum]

What the hell are you talking about? Please point out ONE “misstatement” I’ve made regarding Audyssey. If you look at my Denon AVR and Marantz AVP reviews you’ll see I have thoroughly documented the performance of the Audyssey suite, frankly probably more so than anyone else in their whole multi-decade history.




Which is why I measured it!

Bottom line is Audyssey does a very good job of matching a target curve for individual subsections (speakers, subs). I guess some people allege bum mics but all three of the ones I’ve used have yielded sound power curves that closely matched the target curve. Unfortunately the standard target curves are terrible, but can be fixed in the iOS app. The big flaw in Audyssey’s approach is treating bass managed channels as separate subsystems (subs, speakers) rather than as the single channel they are. (Dirac pre DLBC shares this flaw.) The “SubEQ” approach to combining two subs is crude (level match over some frequency and “time align,” then EQ the sum, as opposed to exploiting level and time as additional variables to improve performance) is best described as “better than nothing, probably,” They don’t have an approach for 3 or 4 subs.

You forgot the MRC "BBC Dip" debacle - which I believe is still the default.... without shelling out for the app, you cannot get Audyssey to work properly!

 

[dlaloum]

Agree 100%. The talk about Dirac mixing IIR/FIR versus Audyssey doing FIR only is all theoretical, like AC line conditioning or differences in speaker cable capacitance.

Audyssey patents are owned by Sound United so no one else can use it. The on-AVR presets are not as good as the app/Ratbuddysey or the fancy MultEQ-X.

Once the current generation of AVRs allowed multiple Audyssey presets and full control of the target curve, it sort of makes the setup very competitive with the very best.

Are you sure - I must have missed that news... did SU buy out Audyssey?

It would explain Audyssey suddenly becoming an SU exclusive about 5 or 6 years ago!

 

[GXAlan]

This is something that made me think... Didn't I read somewhere, years ago (?), that Denon bought Audyssey..?!?
Am I wrong..?!?

Still, they allowed Dirac on their AVR/AVP's..?!?

It’s true.

Are you sure - I must have missed that news... did SU buy out Audyssey?

It would explain Audyssey suddenly becoming an SU exclusive about 5 or 6 years ago!

They did not buy out the whole company, just some of the critical patents.

US9860641B2 - Audio output device specific audio processing - Google Patents

A source device uses a profile of an audio output device (e.g., headphones or speakers) to adjust the acoustic output of the audio output device. A database of audio output device profiles is stored in a cloud or locally on the source device. The profiles may include electroacoustic measurement...

patents.google.com

2018 is the right timeline.

Can look up many more.

 

[dlaloum]

It’s true.



They did not buy out the whole company, just some of the critical patents.

US9860641B2 - Audio output device specific audio processing - Google Patents

A source device uses a profile of an audio output device (e.g., headphones or speakers) to adjust the acoustic output of the audio output device. A database of audio output device profiles is stored in a cloud or locally on the source device. The profiles may include electroacoustic measurement...

patents.google.com

2018 is the right timeline.

Can look up many more.



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View attachment 230270

Thanks for that! - It explains a lot.

SU got exclusivity in the audio/HT arena.... - but it was short lived, as ultimately it just opened up opportunities for competitors.

Now SU "own" audyssey - but their smart move might have been to make it available to others and have it become ubiquitous (which it was on the way to doing when they bought it!)

Now they will be fighting a rearguard action forever more - with the rest of the market moving to Dirac, and SU having to follow suit.

It also explains the fact that Audyssey rested on their laurels for the last 5 years... it was no longer their tech to develop.... it was up to SU - but the brains of Audyssey weren't with SU. So where others are progressing audyssey has remained static.

Now SU, pulls out the brasso, and periodically polishes it with new app interfaces.... as it gradually becomes less relevant.