Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

[bo_knows]

I am very sorry to hear of those events that you have suffered through. Losing a flagship AVR is no easy thing to endure. Hopefully your story will be of some guidance to others.

To provide some answers and some guidance, I have submitted the following:

These are not new problems, and not unique to Sound United.

I remember back when those now obsolete old POA Denon and flagship AVR beasts were failing due to heat exhaustion. There is a ton of tech + amps piled into these products with very little room for heatsinks substantial enough to do all of the heavy lifting. Much of the heat comes from the video boards actually. This is why I've always been a proponent of using seperates in large complicated systems.

Few points.
Never put any of these AV products into a closed shelf or stand, regardless of brand, without adding a worthy external cooling solution first.
Never stack your gear. Always provide ample space around each piece to allow the natural induction of heat a place to go.
Like anything you invest in and cherish, how you take care of your belongings is often a personal choice. When things fail, consumers will often look for warranties or insurances for an easy, econimically viable solution. The manufacturers of these devices have no idea how the end user has stored or used an item.
Passive devices (like speakers) do not share these sort of problems, and so warranty co.s will look at those much differently.

BTW, I happen to know that certain Sound United products will come with 5 year warranties, including at least one new flagship

Discussion:
How many consumers will stop to look first at their own personal choices as reasoning for why something fails? How many will make the appropriate changes themselves, when they have a warranty co. that backs them everytime?

"I am very sorry to hear of those events that you have suffered through. Losing a flagship AVR is no easy thing to endure. Hopefully your story will be of some guidance to others" Now we talking. Thank you for your empathy and sympathy! Sometimes this is all one needs. Yes, things like this happen all the time. This time I ran out of luck and it happen to me. I'm fortunate enough and blessed to be able to deal with this either way it goes.

I'm happy for others that Sound United will extend the warranty period on their selected models.
Bryston and ATI they are not and I will need to consider the warranty aspect (along with the customer support) with my next purchase.

As far as brand loyalty, KEF for life...

 

[ieatfishburritos]

Its been 2 months since my 9 month old Denon 3700 stopped putting out sound and was sent for warranty. The unit was in an open sided salamander archetype rack and gently used powering high sensitivity speakers at low wattage. It did seem to run really hot but I never measured it.

The warranty performance is not reasonable. Denon directed me to pay for shipping ($60) and send to a 3rd party for repair. The 3rd party repair facilities are not equipped / staffed to promptly perform the work in a reasonable timeframe. The 3rd party repair facility was not friendly and wouldn't provide timeline estimates or such. Basically told me to stop asking for a status update (I sent a request every 2 weeks) and that warranty work was between them and Denon. Calling denon after 5 weeks resulted in an apology and that they'd have a special investigator follow up on why it's taking so long and get back to me within 3 days. No response received. Calling denon after 6 weeks they said it's abnormal that the investigator didn't get back to me, but they'd follow up and I'd get an answer within 3 days. No response received. I quit calling back. After 7 weeks I received an email from Denon stating the repair center found the issue and will be replacing a board, no ETA. It's been another week and I received at tracking # a few days ago but it's still not been shipped.

I restore vintage receivers and have a full repair / testing setup workshop at home w/ >$7k in diagnostic equipment. While modern receivers have increased complexity, repairs backed by the manufacturer with access to replacement boards should be a 1 day service event, 4-5 days if a board needs to be ordered. The service facility should have a stock of common boards for common Denon receivers. It's about 1-3 hours to diagnose the failing board / component, and a few hours to change it. They are not getting into the complexity of trying to troubleshoot the exact failing component on a board and replace it, they just swap the entire board. The technicians doing the service will also have knowledge about what fails often and may be able to immediately diagnose the issue and know what board to fix based on symptoms. If a warranty service center is taking months for a repair, something is broken and the "Warranty" is not attractive or meaningful, especially for a required piece of electronics families depend on to watch TV.

I work in semiconductor & have managed semiconductor failure analysis laboratories. It's common if a microprocessor or complex device fails in the "field" that it will be returned for warranty replacement. Many companies, such as an automotive company using microprocessors, expect a failed component to be fully analyzed with a report explaining the root cause within 2 weeks. The breakdown is typically 1 week for the failure analysis to occur and 1 week for people to investigate the manufacturing history and defect mode in the manufacturing process, and any reliability implications. You can literally troubleshoot the most advanced microprocessor failure on earth and find a nanometer sized defect among billions of transistors and wires within a few days.

I find it absolutely absurd that removing 10 screws, unplugging wire connectors and removing and replacing boards is not done within a few days. This will likely be my last Sound United product.

 

[Daniel0]

Maybe you should mention from which country you are.
I often heard about issues with sound united support in USA.
I'm from Germany and I hear good things about their support. I can't speak for myself since I didn't have an issue with their products so far.

I wouldn't have the patience that @ieatfishburritos showed them. I thought consumer protection laws were pretty strict in USA.
Maybe you should use them. You have to know when to be polite and patient and where the red line is and you need to insist on your rights.

 

[ieatfishburritos]

Hi Daniel, I'm in the USA and live in Arizona. Denon service sent me to a webpage with a list of west coast service centers. Denon Service Center Info

I don't think the consumer protection laws in the USA work quickly or well for issues like this, but honestly I didn't investigate.

 

[Jon AA]

Unlike ARC, DLBC, RoomPerfect, and hopefully Trinnov, Audyssey does not control bass management at all.

I'd encourage you and others to spend some time messing with MultEQ-X to learn its capabilities. Especially for those trying to decide on a future purchase, it might really help. You can download it for free and you don't even need an AVR at all (the download comes with sample measurements and you can connect to a sample AVR) and you can still play around with all the settings.

It does, in fact, give you great flexibility regarding sub integration. You can change the high pass of the speaker to anything from a 2nd order to an 8th order (total), you can add overlap with the sub if desired. Lots of tweakability. Since they are bragging up more "advanced bass management options" seemingly separate from Dirac on the new models, I'm hopeful they'll allow separate PEQ's, etc, (will finally have the hardware to allow it?) so one could pretty much do a manual MSO without a MiniDSP.

New flagship Denon AVR-A1H!

I'm pretty excited to see that. My plan for an end-game processor (without spending Trinov money) when our new house is built was the SDP-55 when it was announced. However, after following the 400 page thread on AVS forum, the wind was sort of taken out of the sails on that idea. One of the primary features that intrigued me--Logic16--apparently still doesn't exist in any meaningful way. All the stability issues, bugs, etc.... I had sort of decided I'd be better off living with only 13 channels of the 8500 and at least having a unit that works as intended.

This new flagship AVR is a game changer for me in the future. It looks like it'll do everything I could get out of the JBL and save me a boatload of money in the process.

 

[bo_knows]

Its been 2 months since my 9 month old Denon 3700 stopped putting out sound and was sent for warranty. The unit was in an open sided salamander archetype rack and gently used powering high sensitivity speakers at low wattage. It did seem to run really hot but I never measured it.

The warranty performance is not reasonable. Denon directed me to pay for shipping ($60) and send to a 3rd party for repair. The 3rd party repair facilities are not equipped / staffed to promptly perform the work in a reasonable timeframe. The 3rd party repair facility was not friendly and wouldn't provide timeline estimates or such. Basically told me to stop asking for a status update (I sent a request every 2 weeks) and that warranty work was between them and Denon. Calling denon after 5 weeks resulted in an apology and that they'd have a special investigator follow up on why it's taking so long and get back to me within 3 days. No response received. Calling denon after 6 weeks they said it's abnormal that the investigator didn't get back to me, but they'd follow up and I'd get an answer within 3 days. No response received. I quit calling back. After 7 weeks I received an email from Denon stating the repair center found the issue and will be replacing a board, no ETA. It's been another week and I received at tracking # a few days ago but it's still not been shipped.

I restore vintage receivers and have a full repair / testing setup workshop at home w/ >$7k in diagnostic equipment. While modern receivers have increased complexity, repairs backed by the manufacturer with access to replacement boards should be a 1 day service event, 4-5 days if a board needs to be ordered. The service facility should have a stock of common boards for common Denon receivers. It's about 1-3 hours to diagnose the failing board / component, and a few hours to change it. They are not getting into the complexity of trying to troubleshoot the exact failing component on a board and replace it, they just swap the entire board. The technicians doing the service will also have knowledge about what fails often and may be able to immediately diagnose the issue and know what board to fix based on symptoms. If a warranty service center is taking months for a repair, something is broken and the "Warranty" is not attractive or meaningful, especially for a required piece of electronics families depend on to watch TV.

I work in semiconductor & have managed semiconductor failure analysis laboratories. It's common if a microprocessor or complex device fails in the "field" that it will be returned for warranty replacement. Many companies, such as an automotive company using microprocessors, expect a failed component to be fully analyzed with a report explaining the root cause within 2 weeks. The breakdown is typically 1 week for the failure analysis to occur and 1 week for people to investigate the manufacturing history and defect mode in the manufacturing process, and any reliability implications. You can literally troubleshoot the most advanced microprocessor failure on earth and find a nanometer sized defect among billions of transistors and wires within a few days.

I find it absolutely absurd that removing 10 screws, unplugging wire connectors and removing and replacing boards is not done within a few days. This will likely be my last Sound United product.

You are not alone and I feel your pain. Trust me. I do wonder how the service center gets to be "AUTHORIZED" to service their equipment and how much "pull" Denon has over those centers. Reading google reviews on those authorized centers is like reading horror stories. Since your piece is STILL under the warranty, and if I were you, I would lean hard on Denon support and climb the chain until you either get a replacement or a deadline when the receiver is going to be fully and properly fixed.
...............................................................................................
Mods, I understand that these types of posts probably need a different thread and I will keep that in mind with regards to my replies going forward.

 

[Sal1950]

Audioholics did a video the other night on the flagship Marantz pre-pro and amps due for release soon.
I'm super curious how that new pre/pro will measure?

 

[TheAVInsider]

Audioholics did a video the other night on the flagship Marantz pre-pro and amps due for release soon.
I'm super curious how that new pre/pro will measure?

Give or take,
17" X 17" X 8"
30 lbs.
Hope this helps, and you find what you are looking for.

 

[Sal1950]

Hope this helps, and you find what you are looking for.

You should take a shot at doing standup. LOL

 

[GXAlan]

You are not alone and I feel your pain. Trust me. I do wonder how the service center gets to be "AUTHORIZED" to service their equipment and how much "pull" Denon has over those centers. Reading google reviews on those authorized centers is like reading horror stories. Since your piece is STILL under the warranty, and if I were you, I would lean hard on Denon support and climb the chain until you either get a replacement or a deadline when the receiver is going to be fully and properly fixed.
...............................................................................................
Mods, I understand that these types of posts probably need a different thread and I will keep that in mind with regards to my replies going forward.

Looking at the list, it’s a lot shorter than it was pre D+M (when it was still Nippon Columbia). In California, George Meyer is the only place I would trust. They are pretty well known for servicing McIntosh gear that cannot be serviced by the factory anymore and really reflects that each of the repair centers is not quite equal.

United Radio was the only place you could get the various HDMI board upgrades as well.

I feel as if the authorized service centers may only be good for the smallest of issues given the experience you describe.

Edit: in the Nippon Columbia era, I had a pretty good experience with a local authorized dealer and I think the turnaround was about a week.

 

[dlaloum]

The 4 V thing Gene mentioned is not new though. He said that even in his review of the old model AVR-X3300W!! He seems to be on the camp that considers 0.1% THD+N is still good, or below the threshold of audibility and is not "clipping".

Amir used the word "clipping" even when at THD+N level was only 0.018%, or -75 dB at that output level. He seems to think that clipping is the right word when THD+N starts to drop more rapidly (what he considered exponentially). I disagree with the concept because distortion increases does not always equal to clipping, there could be other reasons for the sudden increase.

My thinking is more inline with Gene, and probably JA of Stereophile too, and I don't think the term clipping should be used unless we know the signal is literally clipping. So if the distortions simply suddenly increases, say at 1.4 V as found in some of the Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVPs, but the level is still at well below 0.1%, preamp or power amp it should just be stated as such. To say it is clipping may mislead people to assume the 1.4 V is the limit, and we have seen evidence of such incorrect assumption based on the many posts. I say it is incorrect because in the case of those AVRs measured, the distortions increase at the 1.4 V level was not likely due to "clipping". If it is, distortions would have increased quickly to much higher level than 0.018%. If you look at the THD+N vs pre out level, those Denon and Marantz models Amir measured did not behave like clipping at all, but I could not convince Amir, and he's the boss. To those who worry about not getting high enough voltage to drive their power amps because of the perceived 1.4 V limit, I would just tell them it is my opinion that those units don't really "clip" at 1.4 V, and they can in fact output much higher level, likely as high as 4 V at clipping as mentioned by Gene more than once. Then again, I may not bother anymore as it seems silly to repeat the same thing so many times.

I agree...

Yes it is nice to get ultra low THD / SINAD figures - but truly great amps of yesteryear, were sold with rated power THD's of 0.1% - they still sound great today! - so focus on THD can be a bit misdirected - Noise is more of an issue, but on all of these the noise is well under control.

As for the profile of the THD - optimal is to have the best THD at the lower power levels... where most of the listening is done - and at very loud (high power levels) - the THD is almost always masked.... unfortunately the real measured profiles usually have higher THD at lower levels, and lower THD closer to the rated power levels (just before it starts to rise abruptly.

I do wonder what type of amplifier design would reverse that trend?

To me, I would want the optimal THD to happen at between 0.1 and 0.5V (pre-out) - that's where most of the listening is happening!

 

[dlaloum]

I know the whole clipping debate inside out. I am with you. Would be nice though if SINAD would not decline past ca 1.4 but even increase as the signal increase. Maybe wishful thinking.

Why?

90% of your listening - the most critical bits of music, the dialogue in movies - that is all at the lower levels - between 0.1 and 0.5V... so that is where you would want the peak SINAD - and if it declines a bit towards the rated power output points - that doesn't matter so much, as during crescendo's both noise and THD are going to be masked in any case ... (and at high SPL's the speakers own THD will in any case substantially dominate!)

 

[Mnyb]

Speaking of distortion levels and HDAM modules someone should call out this BS about “sound tuning”.
Best case the Marantz measures slightly worse than the Denon.

I doubt anyone can hear this in a DBT especially if they actually improved THD and noise .

Or do we have single digit THD levels so we can enjoy this master tuning

Marketing gimmick , the actual products may be very good for the class , but not for any reasons they care to mention in thier marketing.

 

[GXAlan]

To me, I would want the optimal THD to happen at between 0.1 and 0.5V (pre-out) - that's where most of the listening is happening!

What is sort of crazy is
1) Stereo Magazine (the German one) measured the Benchmark AHB2 and the English language version of Stereo Magazine measured the Dynaco ST70 Series III.
2) Assuming it’s the same magazine and same lab and just what is available free online is different…
3) At 50 milliwatt, the tube amp was beating the AHB2 for distortion.

This really gets into the questions of tube plus high efficiency speakers sounding good…

 

[Mnyb]

What is sort of crazy is
1) Stereo Magazine (the German one) measured the Benchmark AHB2 and the English language version of Stereo Magazine measured the Dynaco ST70 Series III.
2) Assuming it’s the same magazine and same lab and just what is available free online is different…
3) At 50 milliwatt, the tube amp was beating the AHB2 for distortion.

This really gets into the questions of tube plus high efficiency speakers sounding good…

I think it’s actually the typical unewness high sensitivity speakers will nullify this in practice.
If you use normal speakers instead? It’s not even a theoretical issue.

Both amps have low distortion at 50mW low enough? But the tube amps fr response and output impedance and noise levels ? Aren’t those bigger factors ?

I tend to look at the noise figures more than THD .

 

[GXAlan]

I think it’s actually the typical unewness high sensitivity speakers will nullify this in practice.
If you use normal speakers instead? It’s not even a theoretical issue.

Both amps have low distortion at 50mW low enough? But the tube amps fr response and output impedance and noise levels ? Aren’t those bigger factors ?

I tend to look at the noise figures more than THD .

Not sure what you mean by typical unevenness? JBL 4367 at 94 dB/W measures pretty well.

If you use the shout-o-meter, basically everything is enough. I point this detail because I would not have expected that a tube amp could beat a AHB2 at any objective metric.

50mW gets you 79 dB with the JBL 4367 at 8 feet listening distance which is pretty in incredible since 70 dB can already be a pleasant listening level.

The question is what happens at 0.02 watt instead of 0.05, etc.

 

[peng]

Why?

90% of your listening - the most critical bits of music, the dialogue in movies - that is all at the lower levels - between 0.1 and 0.5V... so that is where you would want the peak SINAD - and if it declines a bit towards the rated power output points - that doesn't matter so much, as during crescendo's both noise and THD are going to be masked in any case ... (and at high SPL's the speakers own THD will in any case substantially dominate!)

I agree with you that low distortion in that range is more important in many cases but there are music with very high dynamics, even >20 dB so to me it is more of a "why not" than "why".. That is, while it shouldn't and likely wouldn't add value to be capable of 4 V without SINAD dropping, it is still good to have that capability so we don't have to worry about the what if situations. We also have to keep in mind that most reviewers focus on the SINAD measured with a 1 kHz signal, if we look at the graphs Amir included in his measurements, some amps do show significant frequency dependency. SINAD, in many tests, at least those on AVRs, did drop (or increase in %THD) at the higher frequencies, so aiming for a higher SINAD measured at 1 kHz may give us some extra comfort, sort of some headroom in a sense.

It also seems to me there is a counter point too. That is, while we are in agreement that most of the listening happens at low output level such as you 0.1 to 0.5 V pre out example, at 0.5 W power amp output level, spl at 3 meters from a speaker with sensitivity 90 dB/2.83V/1m is about 80 dB with 2 speakers playing simultaneously. At such level, -80 dB THD, the harmonics would be at or below 0 dB. -80 dB THD, or 0.01% is likely not audible, or at least not discernible as it could be well below the noise floor of probably most home theater rooms already.

 

[Vincentponcet]

It can be ignore in the Marantz case about slew rate for the discrete HDAM because simple logic should prevail.

Let's look at the following example to evaluate the logic, and facts too:

Marantz sign flow block diagram (simplified):

Signal input

>>>>>>>

OPA

>>>>>>>

DAC

>>>>>>>

VOL CTL IC

>>>>>>>

HDAM

>>>>>>>

OPA

>>>>>>>

PRE OUT TO POWER AMP INPUT

So let's say the slew rate/rise time for the HDAM is far superior, say 20 V/us

Since the slew rate/rise time for the Opamp and probably the volume control ICs as well they used are typically 5 to may be 8 V/us (see datasheets linked below), you can see that the HDAM's slew rate, no matter how good it totally moot. I won't slow things down but it won't improve it, not logically possible!!

Two OP amp chips D+M typically used in the preamp/dac signal path:

NJM8080G PDF

Part #: NJM8080G. Description: DUAL AUDIO OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER. File Size: 609.9 Kbytes. Manufacturer: New Japan Radio.

pdf1.alldatasheet.com

NJM4580 PDF

Part #: NJM4580. Description: DUAL OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER. File Size: 226.56 Kbytes. Manufacturer: List of Unclassifed Manufacturers.

pdf1.alldatasheet.com

NJM2068 PDF

Part #: NJM2068. Description: LOW-NOISE DUAL OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER??????. File Size: 242.72 Kbytes. Manufacturer: New Japan Radio.

pdf1.alldatasheet.com

As to THD+N, we already know the facts/results in the ASR measurements.

So sad AVRs are not just going fully digital by using digital volume control integrated into the DAC chip. To get an analog volume control as best as an integrated digital volume, it would cost a ton. So for mass market AVRs, going fully digital would better and cheaper, less analog components on the signal path.
And for the legacy analog inputs, use an ADC.
The analog pure direct mode is useless for 99% of the use cases of an AVR IMO. If you buy an AVR, this is for multi channels HDMI input and room correction, which makes the signal being digital at some point anyway.

 

[Vincentponcet]

The cooling in the AVRs is lacking and cannot support high current and high power output for extended periods of time. It's a weak point.

They have to move to class D.
And / or just being a pre/pro.
But currently a pre/pro costs x times more than an integrated AVR... to remove the amps.

 

[peng]

So sad AVRs are not just going fully digital by using digital volume control integrated into the DAC chip. To get an analog volume control as best as an integrated digital volume, it would cost a ton. So for mass market AVRs, going fully digital would better and cheaper, less analog components on the signal path.
And for the legacy analog inputs, use an ADC.
The analog pure direct mode is useless for 99% of the use cases of an AVR IMO. If you buy an AVR, this is for multi channels HDMI input and room correction, which makes the signal being digital at some point anyway.

On volume control (basically the core of the preamp section), Denon claimed it took them two years to develop what they used since the AVR-X8500H, obviously the Marantz AV8805 too and trickle-down to the lower models..

AVC-X8500H開発者インタビュー | Denon 公式ブログ

ハイグレードなパワーアンプを13基も搭載し、イマーシブサウンドを極めたモンスターAVアンプ、AVC-X8500Hが登場。10年ぶりとなるデノンのAVアンプの新たなフラッグシップモデルについて、その開発コンセプトや製品に込められた想いを設計者にインタビューしました。

www.denon.jp

Takahashi: The degree of integration of AV amplifiers has increased year by year, and circuits such as volume and selectors have evolved in a direction where they are integrated into a single chip.

However, in order to return to the basics and make the design more audio-like in order to aim for better sound, we wanted to design a circuit that prioritizes sound quality by preparing a dedicated one specialized for the function of the volume circuit and optimizing the signal path on the board.



Therefore, we asked JRC (a semiconductor manufacturer) to make a circuit dedicated to volume as a custom device. This development took about two years.

In addition, by using dedicated devices specialized for each function for input selectors, output selectors, etc., a simple and straight signal path has been realized.

Hometheaterhif also has an article that talks about this:

Edit: Sorry, wrong link

Big news coming from Sound United in 2023!

I think it’s actually the typical unewness high sensitivity speakers will nullify this in practice. If you use normal speakers instead? It’s not even a theoretical issue. Both amps have low distortion at 50mW low enough? But the tube amps fr response and output impedance and noise levels ...

www.audiosciencereview.com

AVR-Audio Video Reciever-Build Quality: Part V - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Good News! Marantz Says No More AVR LSIs for You! You might recall my article on Audio Video Receiver Build Quality announcing the downgrade of the analog section of almost every AVR and Pre Pro coming from the major Far Eastern manufacturers. The article discussed how multi-channel audio...

hometheaterhifi.com

I hope the 2023 models will get another upgrade, after a long 6 years!