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Bias removal challenge: "Setting up a system for a friend"

oivavoi

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If I want to remove bias in my own thoughts and actions, I often find it useful to imagine that it's not about me. What would I think if it was not me doing this or that, but someone else?

I just struck me that this might also be a intriguing exercise in hifi. So here's a challenge to y'all: Imagine that you're asked by a friend to set up a hifi system from scratch in his living room. What would it look like?

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Ok, let's say that it goes like this:
This is a friend who is blessed with having a big living room in his own house, so room acoustics are ok. And no neighbors who will complain about the bass. His wife is very non-demanding and accepting when it comes to what speakers he can bring into the house, as long as it's within "reasonable limits". He has too much money for his own good, and wants to spend roughly 10000 USD on the system in total, maximum 15000 USD. He could be convinced to spend even more, but then he'd need very convincing arguments. He has absolutely no preconceptions about hifi or stereo. So far he's mainly listened to small radios etc, because he hadn't had the time to invest in real hifi. He's been a frequent concert goer though, and he has experience with unamplified acoustic concerts as well as PA concerts. His musical tastes are eclectic, ranging from classical to jazz to electronica. Beyond this, he says that he just wants something that will make him "enjoy music in his home".
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So... what kind of system would you set up for this guy? Remember that it's not about your own taste, but rather what you would assume that he would be happy with.
 
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Nightlord

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connect-amp-1-2.jpg

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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Looks cool. Now I'm waiting for the motivation for this particular system, Nightlord! :)
 

Purité Audio

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A pair of Kii THREEs and his laptop.
Keith
 

Cosmik

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10000 USD is a lot of money! I would recommend starting much cheaper: iPad -> Spotify Premium -> headphone output -> eBay amp -> eBay big speakers (KEF, B&W, Tannoy, Mission etc.). Cost round about 1000-2000 USD. No scientific reason why it couldn't sound excellent - and look great to boot. Because of Spotify Connect, it could be controlled from another phone, pad etc. without any faffing about with 'Information Technology'.

And then if he liked it and has that much cash to splash, flog his existing system for the price he paid for it, and get the Kii Three.

I would not be recommending anything that involved audiophile superstitions, boxes and gizmos, or was likely to be high maintenance or need the input of an IT guru.

(This is a little different from my own preferences, as I would not like to give up on the ultimate control of the system down to crossover level.)
 
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Nightlord

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Looks cool. Now I'm waiting for the motivation for this particular system, Nightlord! :)

Put it together and it will do all the talking itself. :cool:

It's a system with ease to get hold of music, one of the best DACs around to improve from the Sonos built in one, pre- and poweramps that lends no sonic signature to the music. And speakers that can play anything and will often be reviewed as a speaker for music rather than for audiophilia. Quite capable for electronica and corresponding deep bass.
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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10000 USD is a lot of money! I would recommend starting much cheaper: iPad -> Spotify Premium -> headphone output -> eBay amp -> eBay big speakers (KEF, B&W, Tannoy, Mission etc.). Cost round about 1000-2000 USD. No scientific reason why it couldn't sound excellent - and look great to boot. Because of Spotify Connect, it could be controlled from another phone, pad etc. without any faffing about with 'Information Technology'.

And then if he liked it and has that much cash to splash, flog his existing system for the price he paid for it, and get the Kii Three.

I would not be recommending anything that involved audiophile superstitions, boxes and gizmos, or was likely to be high maintenance or need the input of an IT guru.

(This is a little different from my own preferences, as I would not like to give up on the ultimate control of the system down to crossover level.)

Seems like sound advice :)
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Put it together and it will do all the talking itself. :cool:

It's a system with ease to get hold of music, one of the best DACs around to improve from the Sonos built in one, pre- and poweramps that lends no sonic signature to the music. And speakers that can play anything and will often be reviewed as a speaker for music rather than for audiophilia. Quite capable for electronica and corresponding deep bass.

Which speakers are those?
 

Nightlord

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Guru Audio QM60

Review from Hi-Fi+: http://www.oasis-audio.com/images/photos/f4dd33a829de1a8411109993e51f7cce.pdf

Not sure they're currently available, the company has been re-started, so might be able to get a very good deal on a pair found. Think there's a good chance the model will re-appear again, but perhaps they're building up more slowly 2nd time and focusing on the smaller models to begin with.

Ino Audio pi60s is about the same speaker, but close to impossible to get hold of outside Sweden. ( Guru is a commercialized version of the Ino. )
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Guru Audio QM60

Review from Hi-Fi+: http://www.oasis-audio.com/images/photos/f4dd33a829de1a8411109993e51f7cce.pdf

Not sure they're currently available, the company has been re-started, so might be able to get a very good deal on a pair found. Think there's a good chance the model will re-appear again, but perhaps they're building up more slowly 2nd time and focusing on the smaller models to begin with.

Ino Audio pi60s is about the same speaker, but close to impossible to get hold of outside Sweden. ( Guru is a commercialized version of the Ino. )

Seems like cool speakers!
 

Bjorn

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I would ask questions like:

- What size speakers he could live with
- How much acoustic treatment he could apply and where he could place it
- Where both speakers and listening position could be placed
- Whether he listens primarily in sweetspot or other places in the room

Based on this information he would make suggestions. I would also make sure the system had several presets with different frequency responses, which he could experiment with.

Letting him hear a few different speakers might also help the process.
 

Jinjuku

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I would start with this:

A88E_1_20150615449693670.jpg


Then move onto these:

Jason-Znack-ArtPanel.jpg


The electronics would be:

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JRiver/Roon/something along those lines with tablet remote control.

The above is ~$2700. That leaves $7300-11,300 for speakers. Then we would have a talk.
 
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oivavoi

oivavoi

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Interesting proposals, guys!

Of course, "talking with him about the speakers and their intended use" is the most reasonable appraoch to take, but where's the fun in that... :)

My own proposal: I was thinking a bit, and I actually think I would go for something in this case which I wouldn't choose myself at this point. First: I would go for something which looks good. This is because I believe that the brain works in such a way that speakers which look beautiful also will sound subjectively better. I believe that I might be beyond this bias now, but who knows. Furthermore, I think there's research which shows that imaging/soundstaging is something that mostly audiophiles care about. Average listeners care more about the tonal qualities, dynamics, etc. Because of this I would also go for something with wide coverage, not something with narrow directivity (so no Kii's, then).

On the expensive side of his budget, I would perhaps go for a pair of Harbeth M40.2 - maybe they could be found second hand. I personally think the Harbeth speakers sound a little bit wooly compared to the very best, but they have a warm and pleasing and "musical" sound. And they look wonderful. 85 db sensitivity, so I would probably find a cheap but powerful PA amp to drive them. Would feed them with a Sonos connect.

Cg9TKd3WYAA8m2C.jpg


Or, for two active solutions: The Beolab 5s. I think they strike a balance between creating a stereo image and providing spacious room filling sound.

beolab5_2.jpg


Or maybe the Dynaudio XD600:
Dynaudio-Focus-XD-hero.jpg


If bass became boomy in the room, I would probably top it off with room eq in the bass region with mindsp and dirac live.

I'm not sure whether I actually overcame any bias in this way... or maybe I did. I'm more likely to use a cheap but powerful amplifier when it's someone else than when it's me. And I don't hesitate at all using a sonos connect as the source, and don't even think about finding jitter immune solutions like a USB streamer feeding into asynchronous USB. And I'm more open to passive box speakers which sound warm and musical, in stead of being analytical and "correct".
 

Frank Dernie

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Interesting proposals, guys!

Of course, "talking with him about the speakers and their intended use" is the most reasonable appraoch to take, but where's the fun in that... :)

My own proposal: I was thinking a bit, and I actually think I would go for something in this case which I wouldn't choose myself at this point. First: I would go for something which looks good. This is because I believe that the brain works in such a way that speakers which look beautiful also will sound subjectively better. I believe that I might be beyond this bias now, but who knows. Furthermore, I think there's research which shows that imaging/soundstaging is something that mostly audiophiles care about. Average listeners care more about the tonal qualities, dynamics, etc. Because of this I would also go for something with wide coverage, not something with narrow directivity (so no Kii's, then).

On the expensive side of his budget, I would perhaps go for a pair of Harbeth M40.2 - maybe they could be found second hand. I personally think the Harbeth speakers sound a little bit wooly compared to the very best, but they have a warm and pleasing and "musical" sound. And they look wonderful. 85 db sensitivity, so I would probably find a cheap but powerful PA amp to drive them. Would feed them with a Sonos connect.

Cg9TKd3WYAA8m2C.jpg
.

After being super impressed by a pair of active Harbeth 40s (made in small numbers for the pro market) demonstrated at the Scalford show 3 years ago and then finding the owner had a second pair he wished to sell I brought them home to hear them.
Whilst the treble and mid range are lovely I couldn't get rid of the boomy deep bass wherever I positioned them in my room. I think it is inherent in the cabinet design which is similar to the BBC large monitor which has the same fault IME.
Room modes are always excited, but the magnitude of the excitation is hugely effected by where the excitation is relative to the mode shape, as in all vibration excitation.
I manage to get pretty clean bass in this room by positioning speakers to minimise the excitation (I have had Sonus Faber Extrema, Apogee Diva, Goldmund Epilog 1&2, Tune Audio Animas and little Devialet Phantom powerhouses in here) but gave up with the Harbeths and am now storing them for the owner.
 

Blumlein 88

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Revel Performa F208 speakers. Excellent sound, nice appearance. Look good enough there won't be any complaints, not a plain coffin shape yet not weird. $5k or so a pair.
714revel.250.jpg

Next Emotiva XMC-1 preamp/processor for $2500. This is actually a 7.1 processor though easy to use in just stereo. It sounds good, looks good and has Dirac room correction built in with the ability to handle two subs separately if desired. If the fellow later is so happy he wishes to push toward that $15k mark Revel makes matching center and surrounds for the F208 already chosen.

Next I would spend the $2500 remaining on whichever class D amp looks good for that price. Maybe one of the Hypex based Nord amps leaving a few hundred for cables and a few things.

One could do this differently. Stick with the same speakers and amp, go with an Oppo Sonica or Teac 503 for $800 and $1k respectively leaving $3500 in the bank. Or perhaps buying some pre-owned Revel Ultimas for the price difference. This leaves the room correction etc to be done in software in a computer or some such. I think someone not already in the hobby is well served to have it more automatic in the Emotiva unit.

My preference would be to do powered speakers, but the $10k price point is maybe hitting an in between point. There may be good choices in that price range I just haven't the experience to say. The Focal Trio6 BE active monitors would run $5500 for a pair. You might want a sub if the room is large. You would have money for a couple Rhythmik subs if you went with the Oppo or Teac DAC/pre.

Genelecs which have the room correcting ability built in might be the nice ticket, I simply haven't had a chance to hear them.
 

Sal1950

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A computer/laptop
Emotiva DC-1 DAC Pre
Parasound A-21 Amp
JBL 4367

Over budget but it's a lifetime buy IMO
If I had to cut the $ back, a great amp could be had for a lot less and spend the rest on the best JBL's the budget allowed.
 

fas42

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Phelonious Ponk

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I would recommend what I'd do for myself, if I were willing to spend the money: A bluetooth or wifi audio receiver, an Apple TV in my case. Mini dip's DDRC22DA, and active speakers. Studio monitors; they look fine to me. The monitors depend on the size of the room. I'd personally go smaller if possible as I think 5" or smaller mid bass drivers integrate and disperse better than larger drivers trying to carry upper mids. A sub or two. With a small room and Dirac, I wonder if one would be sufficient?

Then I'd have 3 eq presets - one for room correction only. One with a gentle treble roll-off added. A third with a slight bass boost and the treble roll-off. I'd probably listen to these rolled-off versions a lot. Many recordings in my collection demand it.

Tim
 

Sal1950

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Phelonious Ponk

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Thanks Sal. I moved and got really busy with other things for awhile.

Tim
 
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