"Bias" of some members towards headphone measurements?

[Justdafactsmaam]

You don't think that the characteristics of the rooms can be plotted?

Of actual individual specific rooms? Yes I do.

Of an undetermined “normal” room? No

What do you think preference curves are?

Statistical analysis of preferences. Which may or may not apply to any given individual

 

[LevityProject]

If you are spending hundreds of dollars on a mass-produced speaker, it's going to be very unusual to find more than +/- 1dB variation between them. Temperature in your room will tend to be a bigger factor than manufacturing tolerances.

I think of low or lower-end gear when discussing manufacturing differences. Some companies (Sony was mentioned above) are known for having small variations only between products in a line, and others (like Behringer) have been more known for inconsistency within the same line. The point for me is we can only pretend to know this information unless we have real-world reviews to rely on or direct access to this data.

As I said before, this is not either/or. The bias I see permeating around here at ASR is that it's Science VS everything else. not necessarily in the reviews, but within the forum. Pitting Science against all other forms of knowing and saying this isn't biased is a painfully, clearly, obviously biased position to take - called Scientism. The irony is that Science is about data. And everything is a data point.

having said that, the value of scientific analyses of audio devices is that it can tell us a great deal that manufacturer's specs don't reveal.

But in making a decision about what to use, it's a both/and situation. We need good scientific analysis, we need common use cases, and we need creative people who use things in unconventional ways. All of it matters. Especially in the music and audio production world.

 

[InfiniteJester]

Of actual individual specific rooms? Yes I do.

Of an undetermined “normal” room? No

Statistical analysis of preferences. Which may or may not apply to any given individual

Ok. Let's say that you plot every actual individual specific room.

Now combine them and make an "statistical analysis" of that combination of rooms.

What do you get?

 

[Titurel]

I had a link to an article on panning (for mixing engineers) but unfortunately the website is gone. The conclusion was that you can carefully position everything and then if you move your head, or listen in a different room with different speakers, everything changes. Their recommendation was to mix everything L-C-R, or maybe Center and 80 or 90% left & right and don't try to perfectly place everything.

I don't know if I buy into the "how to" generalization, but I agree that precise localization may not survive head movement. But relative positioning is more durable. I would also agree that some imaging techniques (e.g., phase manipulation) are pretty fragile. Panning, eq., time manipulation (setting precedence), and good-old volume are probably the most robust tools.

Then I figured-out something else several years ago when Metallica's Death Magnetic was released - Everybody was complaining that it was over-compressed and that it "sounded like mono". Dynamic compression pushes everything toward the same loudness and that means that anything not hard-panned will be pushed toward the center. So the mixing engineer probably carefully positioned everything and the mastering engineer fouled all that up trying to win the loudness war. (I don't have that album. I just read about it.

A motto for creative types: Never assume that the fools downstream of you can't discover new ways to destroy your hard work.

 

[Miguelón]

I think ASR threads always finish around the same orbit: rooms.

We should invite architects and designers to the forum better than engineers and audiophiles, to design houses specifically to acoustics weather taking care to insignificant details as habitability or energetic efficiency…

 

[LevityProject]

To get a first impression idea of how lively a room is, go into the middle of it and clap or snap your fingers. Listen for where the echos come from. Try that from different positions around the room and see which areas have less apparent reflections, or more. It's rudimentary, but it works.

You can deal with a surprising number of the issues in a room by broadband bass trapping, and then dealing with first and second reflections. The rest is more complicated diffusion techniques.

As a side note, Rockwool (Roxsul) insulation covered with light fabric and placed at early reflection points to the Left, Right, above, and behind the listening position (and behind the speakers), as as well as the top corners of the room is a poor engineer's best friend - exact positioning requires some math to make sure you are setting things up according to room nodes and the exact listening position. Also, make sure you aren't trying to listen from within a room node. https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

you can also put a homemade Roxul pad beneath a sub woofer as a quick and dirty way to de-couple the woofer from the floor.

This site is a helpful one for acoustic room treatment but is geared toward studios. https://www.acousticsinsider.com/blog

 

[antcollinet]

I think ASR threads always finish around the same orbit: rooms.

We should invite architects and designers to the forum better than engineers and audiophiles, to design houses specifically to acoustics weather taking care to insignificant details as habitability or energetic efficiency…

It's easy - use 10cm of acoustic foam on the walls instead of paint. Better yet install these in all rooms.

 

[Miguelón]

To get a first impression idea of how lively a room is, go into the middle of it and clap or snap your fingers. Listen for where the echos come from. Try that from different positions around the room. It's rudimentary, but it works.

You can deal with a surprising number of the issues in a room by broadband bass trapping, and then dealing with first and second reflections. The rest is more complicated diffusion techniques.

As a side note, Rockwool (Roxsul) insulation covered with light fabric and placed at early reflection points to the Left, Right, above, and behind the listening position (and behind the speakers), as as well as the top corners of the room is a poor engineer's best friend - exact positioning requires some math to make sure you are setting things up according to room nodes and the exact listening position. Also, make sure you aren't trying to listen from within a room node. https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

This site is a helpful one for acoustic room treatment, but is geared toward studios. https://www.acousticsinsider.com/blog

Sorry, it was sarcasm. I forgot the smiley…

I’m not very exigent on room acoustics, everyone has his TOCs and mines are more on my music playlists and a certain obsession about that was called “the holy signal” in another thread

 

[Miguelón]

It's easy - use 10cm of acoustic foam on the walls instead of paint. Better yet install these in all rooms.

View attachment 380773

Nice, looks way much better than my actual decoration!

 

[Miguelón]

It's easy - use 10cm of acoustic foam on the walls instead of paint. Better yet install these in all rooms.

View attachment 380773

I believe that if Lord Vader was an audiophile his living room would look such as this…

 

[TimF]

I appreciate those who posted to this thread. It is a thoughtful discussion. Perception is a technology and that technology developed in organisms over time optimizing among number of objectives. Sound perception like eyesight is splendid, and within its specific range, is quite accurate; and it is wondrous. Music, as language, is an addendum to perception and I equate music to a mode of thought. Thought has degrees of freedom from correspondence with immediate reality and so we can play in the realm of thought without actual consequences in the real. If I have a point, it is that music is play: light and festive, serious, dreadful, dramatic, and raucous. Through his website I have increased my appreciation of modern sound reproduction technologies. Silly that a large wall of vinyl LP's or a couple thousand cd's can be inscribed on a thumb drive. I like the artifacts of sound reproduction, that is part of being male, I guess. All in all though it is that I can bring to life Teresa Stich-Randal performing Bach BWV51 or a number of Van Morrison works.

 

[Miguelón]

I appreciate those who posted to this thread. It is a thoughtful discussion. Perception is a technology and that technology developed in organisms over time optimizing among number of objectives. Sound perception like eyesight is splendid, and within its specific range, is quite accurate; and it is wondrous. Music, as language, is an addendum to perception and I equate music to a mode of thought. Thought has degrees of freedom from correspondence with immediate reality and so we can play in the realm of thought without actual consequences in the real. If I have a point, it is that music is play: light and festive, serious, dreadful, dramatic, and raucous. Through his website I have increased my appreciation of modern sound reproduction technologies. Silly that a large wall of vinyl LP's or a couple thousand cd's can be inscribed on a thumb drive. I like the artifacts of sound reproduction, that is part of being male, I guess. All in all though it is that I can bring to life Teresa Stich-Randal performing Bach BWV51 or a number of Van Morrison works.

Wonderful recording, is noticeable how old barely impossible tracks to have years ago had came to life!

Teresa is not bad at all, neither…

On the latest 2000 a friend of mine offered to me as an anniversary present a Wanda Landowska recording from the Well Tempered Clavier that she found in a little CD shop at Barcelona. She knew that I was frustrated because I didn’t find it anywhere in my town.

Now is on Qobuz, Tidal, Apple Music, Spotify…

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Ok. Let's say that you plot every actual individual specific room.

Now combine them and make an "statistical analysis" of that combination of rooms.

What do you get?

An average.

What do get when you do the same for human beings?

An average. A person with half a *****, half a vagina and one breast.

Neither are particularly useful for individuals

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I think ASR threads always finish around the same orbit: rooms.

We should invite architects and designers to the forum better than engineers and audiophiles, to design houses specifically to acoustics weather taking care to insignificant details as habitability or energetic efficiency…

Architects probably won’t have much to add.

Ethan Winer is an expert on room acoustics but he left the forum in disgust after some less than cordial exchanges with a few forum regulars over the merits of side wall reflections

And since this is a thread about ASR biases. IMO that fall out with Ethan highlighted THE prime ASR bias. If Dr. Toole says it, it becomes dogma.

JJ knows a lot about room acoustics. Does someone want to invite him to the discussion?

 

[InfiniteJester]

An average.

What do get when you do the same for human beings?

An average. A person with half a *****, half a vagina and one breast.

Neither are particularly useful for individuals

Do you know that things are commonly designed to suit the requirements of average people within two standard deviations?

That is why people that is, for example, taller or fatter than two standard deviations encounter a lot of issues. I'm a little more than two standard deviations taller than the average, so I'm glad that they considered things up to me. It has saved me from a lot of headaches!

So, yes, it is extremely useful in both cases.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Do you know that things are commonly designed to suit the requirements of average people within two standard deviations?

Yes I do. What do you think fits better a tailored suit or a two sizes fits all?

That is why people that is, for example, taller or fatter than two standard deviations encounter a lot of issues. I'm a little more than two standard deviations taller than the average, so I'm glad that they considered things up to me. It has saved me from a lot of headaches!

So, yes, it is extremely useful in both cases.

I guess it depends on the use. I was thinking all this time about the use of room characteristics when seeking excellence in high end audio in a world where so much care and objective measurement goes into speaker design

 

[Miguelón]

If Dr. Toole says it, it becomes dogma

Yes, I noticed that he is quoted on the same way that people quotes the bible.

I think that all communities acquire an identity, no matter are organic or virtual ones. It can be taken as “bias” but I think is just the core of that identification with science against marketing.

I work in healthcare sector and I participate in a movement (or intelectual section) called Evidence Based Medicine. In forums sometimes we go too far against someone talking about techniques or medicines supposed to not be measured, non proven therapies… in a way that is aggressive or impolite.

But like ASR members, we are opposed to health providers that invade the market with pseudo-scientific machines, miraculous infiltrations of all kind of substances, dietetic complements that do nothing… the fight get one a bias against all that is out of the well known path, sometimes in a way is not very “healthy” to open thinking

 

[InfiniteJester]

Yes I do. What do you think fits better a tailored suit or a two sizes fits all?

I guess it depends on the use. I was thinking all this time about the use of room characteristics when seeking excellence in high end audio in a world where so much care and objective measurement goes into speaker design

Of course it is not valuable if you seek excellence, but the debate was about what "normal" meant and whether the term was useful or not.

Not about normal being the requirement for excellence.

 

[Salt]

I appreciate those who posted to this thread. It is a thoughtful discussion. Perception is a technology and that technology developed in organisms over time optimizing among number of objectives. Sound perception like eyesight is splendid, and within its specific range, is quite accurate; and it is wondrous. Music, as language, is an addendum to perception and I equate music to a mode of thought. Thought has degrees of freedom from correspondence with immediate reality and so we can play in the realm of thought without actual consequences in the real. If I have a point, it is that music is play: light and festive, serious, dreadful, dramatic, and raucous. Through his website I have increased my appreciation of modern sound reproduction technologies. Silly that a large wall of vinyl LP's or a couple thousand cd's can be inscribed on a thumb drive. I like the artifacts of sound reproduction, that is part of being male, I guess. All in all though it is that I can bring to life Teresa Stich-Randal performing Bach BWV51 or a number of Van Morrison works.

It reads like best of AI ... no harm intended.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Of course it is not valuable if you seek excellence, but the debate was about what "normal" meant and whether the term was useful or not.

Fair enough. I did assume that excellence was a fairly common interest here