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Bi-amping Revel Salon2 makes an ABX audible difference

neutralguy

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Does bi-amping make a difference? My Revel Salon2 speakers come with two pairs of binding posts, and the manual says:

Revel does not endorse one particular connection method over another.... The design of this loudspeaker is such that optimal performance can be attained using the standard connection method.

By connection method, do they mean bi-wiring, or is bi-amping included? When I switched to vertical bi-amping (one stereo amp per speaker), I sensed a subtle but definite improvement in clarity of high frequencies.

To start, let's compare frequency responses. In the vertical bi-amp configuration, each Salon2 is powered by one Benchmark AHB2 in its low gain mode, with the high and low frequency binding post each driven by one of the amp's two channels. In the normal configuration, the manufacturer supplied shorting bridge is used and the speaker is powered via one pair of binding posts. Note that in the normal configuration, each Salon2 is still powered by a separate AHB2, i.e. monoblocking using a single AHB2 channel per amp. This means any differences would be attributable solely to separation of high and low frequency amplification, and not to elimination of stereo crosstalk between the amp's two channels.


biamp vs normal.png


As we can see, frequency response is unchanged. Variations below 50hz are within usual variation on each measurement, so I wouldn't put any credence on differences there. Still, I was not convinced that the difference I was hearing was all placebo. It's impractical for me to do a blind test, given the time and effort required to change from bi-amp configuration to normal. An ABX with enough repetitions to prove audibility would take dozens of changes, each of which takes longer than ideal for our short audio memories.

Recently in my previous experiment, it was shown that recorded speaker outputs can be used in an ABX test to demonstrate an audible difference for a change of speaker feet, so I wanted to see if this ABX method would also work here. I recorded the output of my Revel Salon2 speakers playing music in stereo using a pair of high quality cardioid microphones (Shure SM81), each mic 2' in front of the tweeter's logo.

I've attached sample clips of the recordings. The original is available free on 2L.co. I think you'll agree upon listening that these recordings are a good enough representation of the original to plausibly reveal differences. I did the ABX test using a piece I'm more familiar with, another recording of a classical string quartet.

The difference was minute, and ABX is hard. There's the time, effort, and mental fatigue. The default of 16 trials requires at least 32 intense listenings of the same passage, likely more. It takes training to tease out perceived differences that are real and can be repeatedly ascertained, versus those that turn out to be due to memory blur or too weak to be detected repeatedly with sufficient accuracy. Repeated listening causes a kind of burn in of the senses and memory. Eat a bite sized piece of single-origin chocolate and you can taste the nuances down to the trees that were planted next to the cocoa. Now imagine eating 32 pieces in a row and then asked to distinguish the nuances between the last two pieces.

I only take a test when I'm able to get good accuracy in training mode, and still my first two tests were only 10/16 and 9/16 correct, which led me to devise techniques to limit fatigue and its effects. It helped to identify an extremely short passage of 2 seconds and to limit listenings by reducing trials from 16 to 10, which is a tradeoff that requires a higher accuracy for statistical significance. I did the third test after training and improved to 9/10 trials correct (p = 0.0107).

ABX result.png

It's no wonder to me now that ABX tests have come up null for all manners of changes. If I were a random subject brought in off the street, with no practice and no incentive to get the right answer, I would have performed even worse than my initial trials and we would have concluded there was no difference.

I do think the real difference is greater than is captured by the recordings, but that cannot be shown by this ABX setup.


TLDR

Vertical bi-amping of Revel Salon2 using 2x Benchmark AHB2 has the same frequency response but makes an audible difference.
 

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  • 2Lhaydn biamp 8s.zip
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F

freemansteve

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It's within measurable statistical variation, I'd say.
So long as you are not using telephone wire, my guess is "bi-amping" is a myth designed to sell more overpriced cables.
But then again, I cannot remember where I left my RF ear-trumpets, so I may be wrong.
 

NiagaraPete

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Sadly adding a second wire has no benefit. Adding a second amp may improve things but is still not correct.

Ideally you need to run crossovers prior to the amps to have the amps only reproduce part of the frequency ranges. I’d go even farther to say unless the speaker is designed to be bi-amped you’re probably wasting your time.
 

DVDdoug

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By connection method, do they mean bi-wiring, or is bi-amping included?
Standard wiring would be a pair of speaker wires (no bi-wiring or bi-amping)

In the vertical bi-amp configuration, each Salon2 is powered by one Benchmark AHB2 in its low gain mode,
Normally, bi-amping uses an active crossover. And in pro setups there is no passive crossover, except maybe a "protection capacitor" on the tweeter just in case something gets wired or configured wrong. You'll find the same thing in bi-amped active monitors. The main advantage is that it's easy to adjust the woofer & tweeter levels. Plus there's no power-loss in the crossover and you can clip the woofer amp without clipping the tweeter amp.

But in this case where you can't bypass the internal passive crossover, you might get unexpected phase shifts and worse response when combining
the active & passive crossovers.


Most home theater setups are bi-amplified (with an active subwoofer which has its own built-in amplifier).


The speakers in my van are tri-amped (with an active crossover).
 

test1223

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Does bi-amping make a difference? My Revel Salon2 speakers come with two pairs of binding posts, and the manual says:

Revel does not endorse one particular connection method over another.... The design of this loudspeaker is such that optimal performance can be attained using the standard connection method.

By connection method, do they mean bi-wiring, or is bi-amping included? When I switched to vertical bi-amping (one stereo amp per speaker), I sensed a subtle but definite improvement in clarity of high frequencies.

To start, let's compare frequency responses. In the vertical bi-amp configuration, each Salon2 is powered by one Benchmark AHB2 in its low gain mode, with the high and low frequency binding post each driven by one of the amp's two channels. In the normal configuration, the manufacturer supplied shorting bridge is used and the speaker is powered via one pair of binding posts. Note that in the normal configuration, each Salon2 is still powered by a separate AHB2, i.e. monoblocking using a single AHB2 channel per amp. This means any differences would be attributable solely to separation of high and low frequency amplification, and not to elimination of stereo crosstalk between the amp's two channels.


View attachment 199194

As we can see, frequency response is unchanged. Variations below 50hz are within usual variation on each measurement, so I wouldn't put any credence on differences there. Still, I was not convinced that the difference I was hearing was all placebo. It's impractical for me to do a blind test, given the time and effort required to change from bi-amp configuration to normal. An ABX with enough repetitions to prove audibility would take dozens of changes, each of which takes longer than ideal for our short audio memories.

Recently in my previous experiment, it was shown that recorded speaker outputs can be used in an ABX test to demonstrate an audible difference for a change of speaker feet, so I wanted to see if this ABX method would also work here. I recorded the output of my Revel Salon2 speakers playing music in stereo using a pair of high quality cardioid microphones (Shure SM81), each mic 2' in front of the tweeter's logo.

I've attached sample clips of the recordings. The original is available free on 2L.co. I think you'll agree upon listening that these recordings are a good enough representation of the original to plausibly reveal differences. I did the ABX test using a piece I'm more familiar with, another recording of a classical string quartet.

The difference was minute, and ABX is hard. There's the time, effort, and mental fatigue. The default of 16 trials requires at least 32 intense listenings of the same passage, likely more. It takes training to tease out perceived differences that are real and can be repeatedly ascertained, versus those that turn out to be due to memory blur or too weak to be detected repeatedly with sufficient accuracy. Repeated listening causes a kind of burn in of the senses and memory. Eat a bite sized piece of single-origin chocolate and you can taste the nuances down to the trees that were planted next to the cocoa. Now imagine eating 32 pieces in a row and then asked to distinguish the nuances between the last two pieces.

I only take a test when I'm able to get good accuracy in training mode, and still my first two tests were only 10/16 and 9/16 correct, which led me to devise techniques to limit fatigue and its effects. It helped to identify an extremely short passage of 2 seconds and to limit listenings by reducing trials from 16 to 10, which is a tradeoff that requires a higher accuracy for statistical significance. I did the third test after training and improved to 9/10 trials correct (p = 0.0107).

View attachment 198976

It's no wonder to me now that ABX tests have come up null for all manners of changes. If I were a random subject brought in off the street, with no practice and no incentive to get the right answer, I would have performed even worse than my initial trials and we would have concluded there was no difference.

I do think the real difference is greater than is captured by the recordings, but that cannot be shown by this ABX setup.


TLDR

Vertical bi-amping of Revel Salon2 using 2x Benchmark AHB2 has the same frequency response but makes an audible difference.
I like your effort to prove a point, but I am very skeptical. I guess you detect some background noise difference, slightly different position of the speakers or even a different position of yourself in the recording. Are you sure your conclusion is valid?
 

ex audiophile

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I think the exceptional difficulty in achieving a very slight (and dubious) difference speaks for itself and argues against the pursuit of this technique.
 

Ron Texas

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It seems like there would be a loss of maximum volume as half the power is going to higher frequencies where less than half is needed.
 

DonH56

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Sanity check: The normal configuration is a pair of AHB2 monoblocks, bridged, and bi-amped uses the same amplifiers but in stereo mode, with the same input signal to both channels and the outputs connected to the high and low speaker input terminals? I.e. there was no added crossover before the amplifier channels?

Either way, if true, you are also comparing a bridged amp to a standard amp configuration, a change in amplifier topology in addition to speaker configuration. The bridged amp has more power, more noise, higher output impedance, usually higher gain, and so forth compared to a single channel. The bridged amp theoretically has 4x the power of a single channel and twice the output impedance (half the damping factor). I have no idea how much that plays into the test results.
 

HooStat

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I might suggest that you try your experiment again. The reality is that you have 2 negative "trials" and 1 positive "trial" so the entirety of your evidence base isn't reflected by that last trial's p-value.
 
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neutralguy

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Sanity check: The normal configuration is a pair of AHB2 monoblocks, bridged, and bi-amped uses the same amplifiers but in stereo mode, with the same input signal to both channels and the outputs connected to the high and low speaker input terminals? I.e. there was no added crossover before the amplifier channels?

"Note that in the normal configuration, each Salon2 is still powered by a separate AHB2, i.e. monoblocking using a single AHB2 channel per amp." In the normal configuration, each AHB2 has an unused channel, i.e. not bridged. There was no added crossover before the amplifier channels.
 

DonH56

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"Note that in the normal configuration, each Salon2 is still powered by a separate AHB2, i.e. monoblocking using a single AHB2 channel per amp." In the normal configuration, each AHB2 has an unused channel, i.e. not bridged. There was no added crossover before the amplifier channels.
Ah, I missed that, thanks. Was hoping that might help explain why the audible difference but no...
 

LightninBoy

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Cool experiment and thanks for sharing the results and the files.

I timed aligned the samples and reversed polarity in one. It didn't completely null out, so there is a difference in the samples, particularly in the left channel. It sounds to me like a level difference just in the left channel, but I don't have time to verify right now. The nulled output has sound coming from the left channel and ambiance noises. Its believable to me that these could be distinguished via ABX.
 

Dougey_Jones

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It's within measurable statistical variation, I'd say.
So long as you are not using telephone wire, my guess is "bi-amping" is a myth designed to sell more overpriced cables.
But then again, I cannot remember where I left my RF ear-trumpets, so I may be wrong.
You're referring to Bi-Wiring, not Bi-Amping.
 
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neutralguy

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I might suggest that you try your experiment again. The reality is that you have 2 negative "trials" and 1 positive "trial" so the entirety of your evidence base isn't reflected by that last trial's p-value.
I'm glad you brought this up, because I wasn't sure if I should get into this statistical detail. With all 3 trials taken together it's 28/42 correct which is p=0.0218 so we're still good. Besides, these tests were just formal verification of the accuracy I was getting in training.
 

R Swerdlow

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You conducted the listening tests while you were fully aware of the speaker/amp wiring arrangements. You were not blinded. Claiming that your results were unaffected by such well-known sources of measurement bias is not enough. You must, at least, conduct the same tests while blinded and while unblinded, and compare them directly.

You must also compare results when there were no changes to the speaker/amp wiring arrangement. How many of those test showed you could detect the absence of changes? How many did not? Obviously, you must be blinded as you do those tests.

So far, your results demonstrate a modest capacity for mental masturbation, but little else. Your listening tests were far from convincing.

Edit: I admit, this sounds a bit harsh. But that's after I revised my comments. You should have seen what I took out.

You are certainly free to wire your speakers and amps however you please. No one would try to stop you. But, when you post online claiming you have evidence that you can hear differences between passive bi-amping and standard wiring, you should expect push-back. Try to make it more convincing than you have.
 
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Blumlein 88

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My guess is you are hearing a difference in background noise between the two recordings.
 
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neutralguy

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Cool experiment and thanks for sharing the results and the files.

I timed aligned the samples and reversed polarity in one. It didn't completely null out, so there is a difference in the samples, particularly in the left channel. It sounds to me like a level difference just in the left channel, but I don't have time to verify right now. The nulled output has sound coming from the left channel and ambiance noises. Its believable to me that these could be distinguished via ABX.

Did you do this using Audio DiffMaker? I did and there was music heard in both channels, just that when played in stereo the imaging seemed more left. The difference is mainly in high frequencies which is consistent with what I hear both live and in the recordings. I'll attach the diff here but I don't make any claims as to the validity of this program's output.
 

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Blumlein 88

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Did you do this using Audio DiffMaker? I did and there was music heard in both channels, just that when played in stereo the imaging seemed more left. The difference is mainly in high frequencies which is consistent with what I hear both live and in the recordings. I'll attach the diff here but I don't make any claims as to the validity of this program's output.

Get pkane's free Deltawave. It works like Diffmaker, but much better and does many other useful things. It shows the same thing as Diffmaker in this case.
 
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neutralguy

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I like your effort to prove a point, but I am very skeptical. I guess you detect some background noise difference, slightly different position of the speakers or even a different position of yourself in the recording. Are you sure your conclusion is valid?
Changing the connections did not move the 150lb speakers.

If you think the differences were caused by background noise difference, or differing reflections due to me or some object having moved, or perhaps the mic temperature changed in the 15 minutes in between, or some other minor difference that is only subconscious in the recording, then you're saying these things are audible despite also being too weak to affect the frequency response (which is unchanged in every measurement), whereas separating the high and low crossover networks and drivers while and driving them essentially with half the output impedance is inaudible.
 
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