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Better sound vs better experience?

I want to start by clarifying a few things so that there is no misunderstanding: I'm not "worried/unhappy". I'm a little taken aback by the amount of parameters to take into account but it's fine, I have other interests in life and some led me to even bigger vertigos! So, my bad if I sounded upset.
Good. I was worried. You did seem upset.

I'm not unhappy with my system, I'm not looking to change it now, I am mostly looking to learn and share with an intellectually rigorous audio community such like yours :)
Wonderful. We'll take the compliment. Flattery will get you a long way at ASR.

Don't worry, Rob. In the end it's the enjoyment that matters and enjoyment is subjective.
Sounds like my catchphrase: We are all subjectivists in the end.

For myself, the information here at ASR made the process of assembling a good sound system easier by an enormous magnitude compared to the classic audiophile process...
Yup. I came here in 2019 because I was so frustrated and annoyed by HiFi sales. Ended up with the Sierra Ascend Tower.

@Rob_Gordon I saw in your intro post that you're a musician. What do you play, do, make...?
 
Are the Blades better? Damn straight they are better! But - are the differences so significant that I ought to shell out an additinal 35K?

I can confidently say - that for me - with my financial capabilities -
I clicked like on your post but that's not enough. You did a really tremendous job of presenting this story.
 
@MaxwellsEq : I get where you coming from but I want to add a third term to your input and it's the law of diminishing returns applied to time and effort instead of money. I'm already convinced better measuring is better period. What I don't know is how much time and effort would be needed for me to get to better measuring sound in my place
I'm glad to hear you are happy with what you've got. That's a great place start from!

I agree about diminishing returns. I've never been wealthy enough to keep buying gear. My turntable and arm are more than 35 years old. Untill they finally became too unreliable, my preamplifier and power amplifier were also more than 35 years old. My speakers are 25 years old. I achieve this by buying stuff that measures well (so I can stop worrying whether my hearing and brain are misleading me). And I buy gear which is well built. I'm also lucky and I've never lived anywhere where the mains power is unreliable.
 
Once again, thank you all for your kind answers!

So, another set of replies:

I wasn't really worried, as I said, but it's true that it kinda comes an goes! I used housecurve today and did not like what I saw ahaha! I have a friend who is both a sound engineer and an acoustician, and I told him where I'm at, so he might come over and do a proper measurement with his gear and help me set up a filter to add to Roon or at least a PEQ.

I tried to play with it a bit today and it was pretty disconcerting: when I turned it on, the sound felt different weird like "this is wrong and there is too much of that") but after 10 mins, it sounded great... and when I turned it off, I was like "oh my god, this is wrong and there is too much of that"... and after 10 mins, it sounded great!

You get why I don't trust my ears! I feel like I can enjoy differently different set ups. And it's like I'm never too sure what I prefer.

Here is a metaphore: when you watch a movie at home, your image can be "more or less accurate" (as in hi-fi actually, the colors, the contrast, the darkness...) and your image can be small or big. It's like I'm not too bothered by the differences in colors and everything as long as 1)it's UHD and 2) it's huge!

I feel like a kid! Just wanting to be in awe of something spectacular, incapable of a proper critical listening! That's it. I'm a teenager when it comes to my system! And I kinda want to become a grown up like you guys ahaha

@Sgt. Ear Ache : For myself, the information here at ASR made the process of assembling a good sound system easier by an enormous magnitude compared to the classic audiophile process of watching a bunch of reviews in which people said a whole bunch of stuff
Oh yes, I completely understand!

You had a really thoughtful first post and I think it resonated with a lot of people. Your strength of character stands out even in this short interaction, with a thank you and even an attempt not to flood your own thread! ;)
Thank you so much!
It’s fun vicariously spending other people’s money.
ahaha, I so get it, I want to set up systems for my friends with their money all the time!
Congrats.
Thank you again!
I may have missed the current setup you have, but in a way it doesn’t matter if you like it.
Yes, for now, I don't want to share it with everyone because I do not want to read "oh, well, you can probably sell this and this for so much, and then you can probably get such and such for so much". And I know it WILL happen if I do.

I bought my gear pretty recently, it is not cheap and it's the resulting of a bunch of different constraints/deals. I think it probably can be optimized with room correction and this is why I'm starting to toy with Roon. But yes, I clinch to the fact that I cried with that system, as it is. So it's "good enough".

Instead of trying to match a measurements based system to what you already like, it makes the most sense to try something with no preconceived notion or adjustment to what you already own.
yes, indeed it does.
Mg current system is very much science driven. I currently run all Meyer Sound gear and a Trinnov Altitude 32. The system is the price of an nice car at retail (but again, I spent a lot less).
Woaw, interesting! So what model are the speakers?
I tell that story because:
1) patience brings you deals.
2) I have a very premium “Summit Fi” system
3) You need ~$1200 to experience a measurements based system, ideally $1500 to $2500, and will get 80% of the performance of my “if I won the lottery” type system with just $2500.
Yes, that's pretty compelling (and I did spend more than that!)
#1 important element: speaker
#2 important element: DSP
#3 important element: source
#4 important element: knowledge

I would take a great speaker with no DSP and a YouTube source over a state of the art (SOTA) DSP and DAC and amplifier and lousy speaker.
Oh ok, very interesting indeed! I wouldn't have anticipated that.
Everyone likes to say that the source is the most important. You cannot deal with poor recordings with limited dynamic range or incorrectly mic’d environments, etc. While you may have the option of picking which recording of something like Tchaikovsky’s Nutracker Suite is the best, if you like Taylor Swift, the Beatles, Michael Jackson, the soundtrack to Wicked, the soundtrack to Avengers, you get what you get. You might find better versions of pop music or better songs you enjoy within a genre, but if you like _______, you get what you get. You cannot say that I want the Beatles with more dynamic range than they had. Remixes and remasters only go so far.
Yes, we can't control everything...

How? How can you tell from reading posts on an internet forum that the sound you're hearing is not good sound, that it is deficient?
Well, more than just "posts", it's a global reasoning. I made a bayesian bet and figure that my system most likely wouldn't measure great. But I will probably have more solid data confirming this soon!

@eddantes : thank you very much for this very interesting answer. This is not a perspective that's often presented but it is very important. And it says a lot about what I was saying earlier, how I could just get used to very different sounding set ups. Thank you :)
Good. I was worried. You did seem upset.
Maybe a little more than I'm ready to admit?
Wonderful. We'll take the compliment. Flattery will get you a long way at ASR.
ahahah, duly noted!
I saw in your intro post that you're a musician. What do you play, do, make...?
Yes, but very amateurish. I've made very different music, from post-grunge to experimental electronic, or noise, spoken word, post-punk, ambient... I can't really play any instrument well, but I toy with fortunate accidents and sometimes, it pays off!

@MaxwellsEq : yes, the money! but also: the time, the worries, the insomnias... It's a gamble!
 
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I tried to play with it a bit today and it was pretty disconcerting: when I turned it on, the sound felt different weird like "this is wrong and there is too much of that") but after 10 mins, it sounded great... and when I turned it off, I was like "oh my god, this is wrong and there is too much of that"... and after 10 mins, it sounded great!

Which means that your speakers are likely great! Or your state-of-mind is also great! (Glass half full). EQ can help for different recordings because you never know how the original was mastered and mixed.


This is amazing considering the era that this recording was made and knowing that it’s even more engineered today.

Speakers that “take EQ well” have similar on and off axis sound. So even if you have a “bad speaker” that’s voiced away from neutral, if it has similar on and off axis sound, that bad speaker can be corrected to be flat or be maintained in the “voiced” condition that presumably attracted you to the speaker in the first place.

Speakers that do not take EQ well are not wrong — it’s just “less predictable” how it will sound in individual rooms and “less predictable” how it will be received by the marketplace let alone individual listeners.

I bought my gear pretty recently, it is not cheap and it's the resulting of a bunch of different constraints/deals. I think it probably can be optimized with room correction and this is why I'm starting to toy with Roon.
So what model are the speakers?

I have Meyer Sound Amie’s as the LCR in my HT and have Meyer Sound X40’s and X23’s as well, both of which were purchased at paperclip prices.


They are not attractive speakers. They are not ugly, but they truly are industrial pro-audio components. The context of the Meyer Sound Amie was that I was watching Star Wars: Ahsoka and depending on the target curve or speaker I was using, I would hear the light sabers as either raw/harsh or elegant/calm. Unlike a real musical instrument where you have a standard, the question arose in my mind if the lightsaber was supposed to sound raw and energetic to reflect the lethal power of the weapon or if it was supposed to be more subdued as it was an instrument of “more civilized time.”

Doing some research, I saw that Skywalker Sound uses Meyer Sound for everything and knowing that true room correction is only up to the transition frequency, I figured that the Meyer Sound “sound” was going to most closely replicate what the studios intended. Having lived in the Bay Area, I was generally familiar with Meyer Sound as a Berkeley institution and its use in commercial audio. If you enjoyed a Cirque du Soleil production of a broadway musical like Wicked, or even a Disney live theatre production, it was on Meyer Sound speakers. The Directors Guild of America recently moved to Meyer Sound for their screening theatre, etc.

In terms of domestic constraints, the biggest one is the industrial look of the Meyer Sound gear. You can pay extra for custom paint, but it’s definitely not a luxury look. Though, those who know, know. You are also paying for US domestic production and a company whose founders have chosen to build a business around supporting living wages in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world. They also are science driven with enough Hippie audiophile non science


Science

Hand waving

There are speakers like B&W, Sonus Faber, or even McIntosh which don’t match the perfect “science” ideal of neutrality. Depending on your model, the same can be said with Focal, with slightly wider than “textbook” high frequency dispersion. All four companies product very attractive speakers and owners of these speakers have shown in room measurements that show how the V shaped B&W measuring speaker actually translates into a more neutral than expected in-room response in their own homes.

Your furniture, artwork, room dimensions, and listening position will all make big differences in HF response.

Companies making science based speakers have to target the “average” home environment. As I am sure you saw when shopping for homes, no two homes are identical.
 
Which means that your speakers are likely great! Or your state-of-mind is also great! (Glass half full). EQ can help for different recordings because you never know how the original was mastered and mixed.
A sincere thank you for your generosity and optimism. It says a lot about your character, trying to make me feel good about my situation while encouraging me to explore further... exactly the kind of push one needs!


This is amazing considering the era that this recording was made and knowing that it’s even more engineered today.
Thanks for that, I'm gonna check this out :)
Speakers that “take EQ well” have similar on and off axis sound. So even if you have a “bad speaker” that’s voiced away from neutral, if it has similar on and off axis sound, that bad speaker can be corrected to be flat or be maintained in the “voiced” condition that presumably attracted you to the speaker in the first place.

Speakers that do not take EQ well are not wrong — it’s just “less predictable” how it will sound in individual rooms and “less predictable” how it will be received by the marketplace let alone individual listeners.
Thanks, that's a very interesting way to look at things – one I hadn't been exposed to, yet.
I have Meyer Sound Amie’s as the LCR in my HT and have Meyer Sound X40’s and X23’s as well, both of which were purchased at paperclip prices.


They are not attractive speakers. They are not ugly, but they truly are industrial pro-audio components. The context of the Meyer Sound Amie was that I was watching Star Wars: Ahsoka and depending on the target curve or speaker I was using, I would hear the light sabers as either raw/harsh or elegant/calm. Unlike a real musical instrument where you have a standard, the question arose in my mind if the lightsaber was supposed to sound raw and energetic to reflect the lethal power of the weapon or if it was supposed to be more subdued as it was an instrument of “more civilized time.”

Doing some research, I saw that Skywalker Sound uses Meyer Sound for everything and knowing that true room correction is only up to the transition frequency, I figured that the Meyer Sound “sound” was going to most closely replicate what the studios intended. Having lived in the Bay Area, I was generally familiar with Meyer Sound as a Berkeley institution and its use in commercial audio. If you enjoyed a Cirque du Soleil production of a broadway musical like Wicked, or even a Disney live theatre production, it was on Meyer Sound speakers. The Directors Guild of America recently moved to Meyer Sound for their screening theatre, etc.

In terms of domestic constraints, the biggest one is the industrial look of the Meyer Sound gear. You can pay extra for custom paint, but it’s definitely not a luxury look. Though, those who know, know. You are also paying for US domestic production and a company whose founders have chosen to build a business around supporting living wages in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world. They also are science driven with enough Hippie audiophile non science


Science

Hand waving
I love that story! It's great! but you never told us: how does the saber sounds for real?! A New Hope is one of the movies that really marked my childhood... when you write : "with enough Hippie audiophile non science", what do you mean? I'm intrigued :)

There are speakers like B&W, Sonus Faber, or even McIntosh which don’t match the perfect “science” ideal of neutrality. Depending on your model, the same can be said with Focal, with slightly wider than “textbook” high frequency dispersion. All four companies product very attractive speakers and owners of these speakers have shown in room measurements that show how the V shaped B&W measuring speaker actually translates into a more neutral than expected in-room response in their own homes.

Your furniture, artwork, room dimensions, and listening position will all make big differences in HF response.

Companies making science based speakers have to target the “average” home environment. As I am sure you saw when shopping for homes, no two homes are identical.
Yeah, I'm gonna PM you I think!
 
Science helps eliminate pure placebo where we cannot find any differences. Statistics are complex and can misleading/misinterpreted.

Statistically, a random American is likely to have voted for President Trump. Individually, there are people who might have voted for Kamala Harris but was on the fence or people who voted for Kamala Harris who were vastly opposed to Trump. On the Trump said same thing. We don’t talk politics here, but this is a really nice example of how statistics and facts are mathematical certainties but individuals can deviate from statistics quite regularly.

Going back to speakers
View attachment 412214

If you look at the data from Harman (and I added the red triangles), there was a speaker predicted to have a 4.5 performance but actually was a 2 and a speaker that was predicted to be a 3.5 and behaved like a five.

The worst speaker was predicted to sound better but in blind testing, people preferred the worse predicted speaker.

For a company like Harman, they can look at this trend and try to make the best speaker they can based upon the prediction. But taking this to the extreme, it’s like saying that Harman needs to make a speaker that is preferred by voters who voted for Trump. Statistically that is where they have the best sales because as a whole, Trump saw more votes.

Companies like B&W have stood the test of time and the marketplace despite falling out of the standard preference target.

With room EQ and DSP, there can be variability in the accuracy of calibrated microphones and monaural omnidirectional microphones really cannot distinguish on axis and off axis sounds the way that our ears can. Dr Toole’s comment about having a violinist coming into your home and not needed to room correct the violin even though different homes will have different measured performance of that violin because our ears “hear” through the room.

It’s all still science based to like what you like, especially when the measurements aren’t nulled out.
If I well understand, the key is know which are Trump's speakers.. :)

A delicate political-audio question, should we know what our government use as speakers, amps, sources? Do the LR stereo system represent two-party historical tendency in US?
Do you need a central channel?

Sorry, I woke up in a funny mood this morning, have red Toole's paper and I find it a must-to-read to every audiophile
 
trying to make me feel good about my situation while encouraging me to explore further... exactly the kind of push one needs!
Keep in mind the goal of audio: enjoy your music. And find new one to more enjoy. Audiophile can overlap music experience when you're looking to minor differences between settings, speakers, room modes.

At least is what happened to me when arrived here, now I fix one parameter and I let it some days or hours as it is without analytical listneing to give emotional effects time to arise, intelectual ones need vacations.
 
Hey Rob,

I'll just share my journey on this subject. Maybe it will resonate with you. The big thing for me - blind tests.

Even my crappy ones, which were not even properly conducted, provided a very good illustration of the limitations of my hearing, and how forgiving my ears are. The key was to take a speaker that is by n large considered OK (F35s =in my case) and compare with loudness matching and rapid switching against something else. Now all of a sudden you realize just how small the differences are between OK and OK-1/OK+1. Once you've calibrated your ears and mind - you can relax when you realize that something as unremarkably OKish as the F35s, are really 90% (or more) of the way to audio-nirvana; and that the last 10% may or may not be audible to you and not worth pursuing.

Furthermore - if you have 2 or more speakers that are recorded in Spinorama - you can now compare them under the conditions above (volume matched and rapid switching) - you can look at the CEA2034 or the PIR charts and start to consider if you can hear the differences you can see in the chart and finally how impactful those differences are to you, in your environment and your musical tastes.

Yes - your room will have a big impact - but since you're room remains a constant (for you) you can ignore the absolute values and simply look at the relative differences.

View attachment 412348

Now - forarmed with the knowledge above - you can look at a comparisson like this and say to yourself - Do I really need to pursue this?

View attachment 412349

Are the Blades better? Damn straight they are better! But - are the differences so significant that I ought to shell out an additinal 35K?

I can confidently say - that for me - with my financial capabilities - Nah. Not really. I'd rather blow that money on a month long exotic trip with my whole family. Those 9/10ths F35s give me more than enough of music satisfaction.

My upgradeitis has been cured by ASR and learning to read Spinorama (with full apologies to all those that will claim measurements don't tell the whole story).

Wait a sec. I think you just cured my audiophilia nervosa?! :oops::D
 
What I find odd is a person that is perfectly happy with the system they have and then reads some article and that information changes how they view the system they were quite happy with, before they read the article.

As a trained professional HD master mechanic, it takes a lot more than someone saying or proving what they measure or hear is going to make me change my mind.

Countless times I've repaired what is broken and walked away from what isn't broken on a job site. I've found that payment pain often influences whether a piece of
equipment is "BROKEN" or the operator is just having a hard time justifying their impulsive 350 to 2.2 million dollar purchase.

It's pretty simple, is there something that you're listening to that causes you to get up and walk away from your setup?
THEN it's time to get some testing equipment unless you're into testing stuff for the fun of it. I'm NOT, nor have I EVER been.

I look at the specks on the equipment, and how the equipment looks and feels. Does it look cheap, is it made from crap products and does it have a good reputation that stands the test of time.

If I listen to the product in MY room and it passes the listening test and I don't get a 100.00 a month increase in energy consumption, it usually stays if it passes the
"days on end listening test." Several times I've listened to systems and I'm forced to get up and walk out from 5 to 30 minutes into a listening session.
BTW the equipment measured as good as it gets on paper. I just want to pull my hair out listening to it. SST Ampzilla is one of those amps that does just that.

I have NEVER tested first and then listened. NEVER. However, I have listened a few thousand times and walked away forcing me to wonder WHY, what I was listening to
was so irritating and caused the short listening session? It's usually the speakers/amp in concert with the room. B&W and Wilson both do that to me in an untreated room. If you add a zero feedback amp into the mix there is a good chance it will make it even worse and I'm out of there in less than 5 minutes. In a room treated
for those nasty domes and a little effort in the sub/bass department things usually go pretty well.

I can take the same speakers in a well-treated room with most Pass designs and can sit for hours on end. Swap to a SS Krell and my ears start to bleed and I have
to leave. It's the "sit and listen" test. I used to do the same thing after building an engine. I'd pack a pipe with some good Virginia twist/flake tobacco and just listen
for a couple of hours, watching that stack and feeling the ground right next to the equipment.

I've listened for weeks sometimes, (if I could), for an hour or so per day. It would just idle in the yard while I was doing something else. I do the same thing
to a system after I set up or change a major component or move a cabinet or chair position. Then I measure (using a tape measure), TAPE the floor and write the measurements on the tape. If your system WORKS don't mess with it. I still keep a journal of changes in my rooms over the years, with speakers used and measurements from walls, seated position, and so forth.

More than anything learn to ENJOY what you're doing for FUN, AND don't nit-pick it to death. Trust what makes you SIT and listen. BTW I can LOOK at my
gear for days on end, too. If it's ugly, that is why they make doors on cabinets or tablecloths to cover it.

Regards
 
What I find odd is a person that is perfectly happy with the system they have and then reads some article and that information changes how they view the system they were quite happy with, before they read the article.

As a trained professional HD master mechanic, it takes a lot more than someone saying or proving what they measure or hear is going to make me change my mind.

Countless times I've repaired what is broken and walked away from what isn't broken on a job site. I've found that payment pain often influences whether a piece of
equipment is "BROKEN" or the operator is just having a hard time justifying their impulsive 350 to 2.2 million dollar purchase.

It's pretty simple, is there something that you're listening to that causes you to get up and walk away from your setup?
THEN it's time to get some testing equipment unless you're into testing stuff for the fun of it. I'm NOT, nor have I EVER been.

I look at the specks on the equipment, and how the equipment looks and feels. Does it look cheap, is it made from crap products and does it have a good reputation that stands the test of time.

If I listen to the product in MY room and it passes the listening test and I don't get a 100.00 a month increase in energy consumption, it usually stays if it passes the
"days on end listening test." Several times I've listened to systems and I'm forced to get up and walk out from 5 to 30 minutes into a listening session.
BTW the equipment measured as good as it gets on paper. I just want to pull my hair out listening to it. SST Ampzilla is one of those amps that does just that.

I have NEVER tested first and then listened. NEVER. However, I have listened a few thousand times and walked away forcing me to wonder WHY, what I was listening to
was so irritating and caused the short listening session? It's usually the speakers/amp in concert with the room. B&W and Wilson both do that to me in an untreated room. If you add a zero feedback amp into the mix there is a good chance it will make it even worse and I'm out of there in less than 5 minutes. In a room treated
for those nasty domes and a little effort in the sub/bass department things usually go pretty well.

I can take the same speakers in a well-treated room with most Pass designs and can sit for hours on end. Swap to a SS Krell and my ears start to bleed and I have
to leave. It's the "sit and listen" test. I used to do the same thing after building an engine. I'd pack a pipe with some good Virginia twist/flake tobacco and just listen
for a couple of hours, watching that stack and feeling the ground right next to the equipment.

I've listened for weeks sometimes, (if I could), for an hour or so per day. It would just idle in the yard while I was doing something else. I do the same thing
to a system after I set up or change a major component or move a cabinet or chair position. Then I measure (using a tape measure), TAPE the floor and write the measurements on the tape. If your system WORKS don't mess with it. I still keep a journal of changes in my rooms over the years, with speakers used and measurements from walls, seated position, and so forth.

More than anything learn to ENJOY what you're doing for FUN, AND don't nit-pick it to death. Trust what makes you SIT and listen. BTW I can LOOK at my
gear for days on end, too. If it's ugly, that is why they make doors on cabinets or tablecloths to cover it.

Regards
Happens the same in my music enjoyment experience but since I moved to small and untreated apartments (I should live in the city center by job, price of meter square have rosen astronomically and I suffer from mite allergy so no carpets, curtains, minimal cushions…) I became quite unpleasant with music theaters.

In general preference score matches well the results I obtain after a couple of modes correction, that’s the reason I joined ASR, and since active monitors have acceptable amps and well integrated to the SPL if you accept not apocalypse trumpets the result is good and relatively cheap.

Curiously I have a friend who spent a kidney in B&W 800 series speakers, a Krell amp, and Electrocompaniet preamp: when he proudly invited me to listen his setup I was horrified by the protruding midrange (500 to 800 Hz as after looked in measurements) and highs to sound “crystalline” (around 4000Hz)

I was fatigued very fast, didn’t say anything because should be taken by a destructive critic after his 12.000€ dispense, but when arrived to home I was quite surprised how my ten times cheaper Genelecs G Three made me so happy (in my smaller living room, in him’s would be lost in the space).

Of course, if he’s quite happy with his gear and enjoys the music, nothing to comment, agree in which matter is having a good time with music.
 
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