Better Bass reproduction with KEF R11 instead of KEF R5 and Sub?

[Acapella]

Hello everyone,

I currently have KEF R5 Meta speakers and a Nubert XW-800 subwoofer.
They are connected to an Onkyo P-80 and an Audiophonics AP300-S250NC power amplifier (for the R5 Meta).

I keep toying with the idea of trying out a KEF R11 (META or non-META).

Perhaps one of you can contribute something to the following questions:

1.: Are there any experiences or measurements at the listening position where you can see whether the four bass drivers of the KEF R11 possibly generate less powerful room modes than the two bass drivers of the R5 or R7?
I often wonder whether the four bass drivers of the R11 could possibly lead to better bass reproduction, so that I could possibly do without the subwoofer altogether.
If anyone has already compared this and taken measurements, I would be very interested to see them.

2.: Has anyone been able to compare the R11 Non-Meta and R11 Meta (possibly in their own listening room)?
The KEF R5 Meta is still affordable (after negotiating with the dealer), but the R11 META is very expensive (in my opinion, much more expensive than the non-Meta version) and I am wondering whether it really has to be an R11 META or whether a good used R11 non-META would also suffice. Perhaps someone here can contribute their opinion.

My setup currently measures as follows, measured at the listening position with Dirac Live Bass Control activated.
A fairly flat target curve with +1dB in the bass and treble is used in each case:

Dirac active, single measurement at the listening position:

Dirac active, single measurement at the listening position RT60:

Dirac active, MMM measurement at the listening position:

Dirac active, MMM measurement at the listening position, No Smoothing:

Many thanks in advance!

 

[staticV3]

1.: Are there any experiences or measurements at the listening position where you can see whether the four bass drivers of the KEF R11 possibly generate less powerful room modes than the two bass drivers of the R5 or R7?
I often wonder whether the four bass drivers of the R11 could possibly lead to better bass reproduction

Though having more bass sources in your room can indeed result in smoother in-room responses, I'm afraid just putting more woofers into your tower will not achieve the same effect.

Effectively, it'll still be a single bass source per tower, placed in a single location within the room.

Worse still, the R11's four woofers give it some 5Hz deeper LFX compared to the R5 and if anything, that'll make room modes even worse.

Regarding your graphs, would you mind reposting your MMM measurement, but this time with no additional smoothing applied, just whatever came straight out of the RTA?

That'd give us the most honest look at room modes in your listening environment.

 

[melomane13]

Eight 6.5″ woofers ( R11) provide approximately 4.5× the effective radiating area of a single 8″ ( your subwoofer).

The corresponding theoretical SPL increase is:
ΔSPL = 20·log₁₀(4.5) ≈ +13 dB.

This provides a significant increase in maximum output and reduces distortion.

However, it will not help to balance the room’s resonance modes, which are typically addressed by using multiple, spatially distributed sources.

Therefore, if the issue is SPL, increasing the radiating area is the appropriate solution;
if the issue is room modes, adding multiple subwoofers is the correct approach, which also allows an increase in SPL, at least within the subwoofer frequency range.

 

[staticV3]

Eight 6.5″ woofers ( R11) provide approximately 4.5× the effective radiating area of a single 8″ ( your subwoofer).

The corresponding theoretical SPL increase is:
ΔSPL = 20·log₁₀(4.5) ≈ +13 dB.

This provides a significant increase in maximum output and reduces distortion.

this ignores that the subwoofer will be built for excursion and power handling, whereas the KEFs woofers will be optimized for distortion and linearity.

in practice the SPL increase will be lower, approaching zero towards subbass.

 

[Acapella]

I added (in the first post on the end) a screenshot of the MMM measurement but without smoothing.
Please note that all the screenshots are with Dirac enabled, as I did not make any measurements with Dirac disabled for this measurement series.

With the SPL of my system I am pretty happy and I don't need an increase in SPL.
The thoughts about the R11 was only about a better bass reproduction with maybe lower stimulation of the room modes because of the more bass drivers that the R11 has.

 

[nerdstrike]

If you're worried about flabby/distorted bass, don't forget you've got ports in the R5 (and R11). Given your sub, you might experiment with bunging or partially bunging them. Annoying to recalibrate Dirac each time though!

Sadly Amir's measurements of the R11 meta did not get port-chuffing measurements, but maybe somebody else has?

 

[Max_fl]

I did the upgrade from R5 meta to R11 meta in hope of getting a better bass and because I got a decent deal on R11. Unfortunately, the difference is very minimal, the most noticeable is a mid bass improvement, but for everything else my two Rythmiks are still needed. Plugging the ports helps a bit, the speakers are 2ft from the back wall currently. Also, I got better details in the complex symphonic pieces. But the baroque orchestra with a small number of instruments sounds almost identical. So, if you're going to upgrade to R11 meta at MSRP, it's not worth it.

 

[Mort]

Unfortunately, the difference is very minimal,

Yeah they have the same 46hz F6. I would have guessed the R11 would go at least a little lower. I'm sure it goes louder in that configuration.

So, if you're going to upgrade to R11 meta at MSRP, it's not worth it.

MSRP they are $1k difference, right?

 

[Max_fl]

MSRP they are $1k difference, right?

Now it's $2k per speaker, they discounted R5s.

 

[JRowland]

Difference between R7 meta and R5 meta in the low end is not minimal, in my room anyway. Similar placement, 10” from the rear wall in a corner.

R7 meta

R5 meta

Without the corner the story is the same

7

5

I would think the R11 meta could match the R7 for extension at least?

 

[Mort]

Difference between R7 meta and R5 meta in the low end is not minimal,

It's lower by 5hz F6 anechoic. Not that much. In room, yes they will all be lower. R11 meta is another 5hz lower.

 

[JRowland]

It's lower by 5hz F6 anechoic. Not that much. In room, yes they will all be lower. R11 meta is another 5hz lower.

The poster who switched from R5 to R11 said “the difference was very minimal”, I’m assuming he/she is using them in a room?

 

[Max_fl]

The poster who switched from R5 to R11 said “the difference was very minimal”, I’m assuming he/she is using them in a room?

Yeah, in untreated room. Here's my quick REW measurement I took. R11 is green.

 

[JRowland]

Yeah, in untreated room. Here's my quick REW measurement I took. R11 is green.

View attachment 505992

Are those only an R11 (green) and R5 (orange) playing for these measurements (50db at 2Hz)?

 

[staticV3]

Yeah, in untreated room. Here's my quick REW measurement I took. R11 is green.

View attachment 505992

Please hover your cursor over the bottom right corner of the main SPL window and click on the 20 to 20kHz button which appears there.

Then click on Limits above the graph to the right, and Fit Y to data.

Do this every time before you export or screenshot graphs.

 

[Head_Unit]

Fit Y to data.

Yeah! I was shocked "OMG how flat!!!" then I looked at the 400 dB scale

 

[Max_fl]

Are those only an R11 (green) and R5 (orange) playing for these measurements (50db at 2Hz)?

Yes, I guess it's mostly my room "playing", if it's not a kind of a glitch.

Now my graph is not that pretty

 

[JRowland]

Yes, I guess it's mostly my room "playing", if it's not a kind of a glitch.

Now my graph is not that pretty
View attachment 506039

Both ports on each speaker have plugs in?

 

[Max_fl]

Both ports on each speaker have plugs in?

No, no plugs at that time.

 

[JRowland]

No, no plugs at that time.

Sorry I have so many questions, it’s just my curiosity. When you say 2 feet from the back wall, the front face of mine are roughly 23.5” off the back wall. I had a lot of cancellations in the same area you do when I tried my R7 out from the wall a similar distance as you if I’m understanding correctly. Is your back wall 2 feet away from the rear of the cabinet? The R5 is consistent with what I see in room, done at 40Hz. It looks like the 11 is begging for some back wall gain, I can see the extra extension.