Better Amp better soundstage?

[krismusic]

Hi. First post. I'm asking here because I know I can trust the answers I get. I have a WiimAmp. I am getting very little in the way of soundstage. Would a better amplifier help?

 

[sealpin]

Short answer: no

Sound stage: if not done already check your room acoustics. Focus on the area left of your left speaker and right of your right speaker: they should be acoustically identical.

 

[krismusic]

Thank you for the reply. I have been investigating acoustic treatment. It's a very complex subject! I have tried some crude experiments with blankets. They have improved matters but by no means solved the problems of the room.

 

[DVDdoug]

Assuming nothing is wrong, the amp sends the left signal to the left speaker and the right signal to the right speaker and that's the extent of the amplifier's involvement.

If you are playing vinyl there is some slight crosstalk (with the left & right channels "leaking" into each other) but it's usually too small to notice.

Some headphone amplifiers have "crossfeed", which is intentional crosstalk to compensate for the fact that the left & right soundwaves don't mix in the air like normal stereo from speakers (or with live music).

Some people have described experiencing a "good soundstage" with "3D" localization of all the instruments & voices ONCE, or rarely, and then they can't find that magic again.

Personally, I don't think much about it. I mostly listen to rock where the "soundstage" was artificially created in the studio, so I just enjoy the stereo (or surround). And with regular stereo recordings I like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting to get some delayed reverb in the rear and the "feel" of a larger space.

Floyd Toole says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker.

Of course your brain is also involved in the illusion with the sound actually coming from a pair of speakers (or more with surround) along with the sound reflected-around in the room.

I have been investigating acoustic treatment. It's a very complex subject!

Yes, very complex and sound absorption might make it better or worse. It's certainly worthwhile to experiment as you are doing before buying anything "permanent" . (We are used to hearing sound in normal rooms with normal reflections.)

And you can end-up absorbing high & mid frequencies and fouling-up frequency response...

 

[Petrushka]

The first thing to check is speaker phase.

 

[Timcognito]

Sound stage has very little to with the electronics. The primary input to sound stage is the recording itself and the simpler the recording the better, a few acoustic instruments and maybe some voice. Next without DSP it is speaker placement, distance apart, from the wall behind (AKA front wall) and as mentioned the side walls, and toe in +,-,0. Next is furniture and drapes over windows, having some and a rug will help with floor bounce for high frequencies. The room modes can be tamed with DSP but sometimes the very deep bass like from a subwoofer is difficult wrangle. Yes as was just posted make sure wires are in right place + and -. There many places on web that illustrate how-to for speaker and room setup and music that reveals sound stage. Also your head phones will help with identifying sound stage. There are some very acuurate one under $30, so read some ASR reviews

 

[krismusic]

Sound stage has very little to with the electronics. The primary input to sound stage is the recording itself and the simpler the recording the better, a few acoustic instruments and maybe some voice. Next without DSP it is speaker placement, distance apart, from the wall behind (AKA front wall) and as mentioned the side walls, and toe in +,-,0. Next is furniture and drapes over windows, having some and a rug will help with floor bounce for high frequencies. The room modes can be tamed with DSP but sometimes the very deep bass like from a subwoofer is difficult wrangle. Yes as was just posted make sure wires are in right place + and -. There many places on web that illustrate how-to for speaker and room setup and music that reveals sound stage. Also your head phones will help with identifying sound stage. There are some very acuurate one under $30, so read some ASR reviews

Thanks for the solid advice.

 

[DVDdoug]

Also your head phones will help with identifying sound stage.

Very few people experience a realistic soundstage with headphones. Headphone soundstage survey

 

[Timcognito]

Very few people experience a realistic soundstage with headphones. Headphone soundstage survey

Okay OP ignore that. I don't use them that much, but with my best recordings with sound stage from Chesky, MA, Analog Pro., Groove Note, etc. its seems preserved on HP. It is 90% the recording and mixing.

 

[Chrispy]

No.

 

[kemmler3D]

@Timcognito basically covered it -

1. Ensure proper speaker placement
2. Get better speakers
3. Apply acoustic treatment
4. Apply DSP

In that order, is what I would try to improve soundstage.

Amp basically doesn't come into play at all, because soundstage mostly relies on higher frequencies and amps are rarely unable to put out enough juice to do those.

And welcome to ASR!

 

[312elements]

Hi. First post. I'm asking here because I know I can trust the answers I get. I have a WiimAmp. I am getting very little in the way of soundstage. Would a better amplifier help?

I’m not disagreeing with anything said above, but I’m curious what you’re comparing it to? Did you have another amp in that room with those speakers that had a more enjoyable soundstage for your preferences? Very little what? Width, depth, etc? and compared to what? Amp is certainly not the first place I’d look to change the presentation of the music

 

[Keith_W]

The first thing to check is speaker phase.

I agree with what @Timcognito and @kemmler3D said but don't forget this advice: make sure you have wired everything up correctly. You will get very weird results if your speakers are out of phase with each other!

 

[GXAlan]

Double check speaker phase and stereo reversal. It could be an errant manufacturing issue or user mistake. Neither is a sign of foolishness — just good ears that can hear defects.

Errant manufacturing means that you actually have to reverse the cables to generate proper phase.

There are several audiophile demo CDs that do the whole “in phase” and “out of phase” playback for you to verify.

 

[Chagall]

Amp basically doesn't come into play at all, because soundstage mostly relies on higher frequencies and amps are rarely unable to put out enough juice to do those.

Not sure I get this bolded part.

As far as I understand, music (or how it is mixed) is the most important part of getting a wide soundstage. Everything else being equal, some music just doesn't have spatial cues or effects and won't sound wide ever. The next thing is the wider speaker radiation and the smaller difference between the on-axis/off-axis response to get quality reflections.

So yeah: music, speaker radiation and placement, room symmetry and acoustic treatments, DSP.

Please correct me if I'm missing something.

 

[TSX]

I have a WiimAmp. I am getting very little in the way of soundstage. Would a better amplifier help?

I know I'll get my head in the gallows with this response, but I'll say absolutely! Last week I tried the wiim amp, Marantz M1, YAMAHA R-N800A and Hegel H190 on the same set of speakers (REVIVAL AUDIO SPRINT 3) in the same setup/room. The latter three were somehow similar in overall sound, but the wiim amp sounded very different - and unfortunately not in a good way. It was obvious to everyone who listened. We couldn't make a scientific ABX comparison, but we could change amps without knowing which were which and somewhat levelmatch. 4/5 tries could easily tell the wiim amp from the others, and the 1/5 was because the speaker cables were put in with wrong polarity in the amp, that there could not be heard a difference from the listener.

It's maybe not fair to compare a cheap wiim amp with the other amps, but the difference was very noticeable. Soundstage (defined by me as sound width and X/Y/Z axis instrument placement) and bottom end was missing compared to the other amps. I know my answer will not be well taken on this forum, but I don't care. I'm very much a science guy, but the difference with the wiim amp compared to the others was so noticeable, that it could not be ignored.

Of course room acoustics will have a huge impact, and way more than any 1000.000$ system can ever fix. In my dedicated (rectangular) listening room I can place my speakers and the end walls and get crappy sound. If I place them on the "short" walls, I get much much better sound. You could get satisfactory sound with the wiim, but my experience with real world comparisons is, that there absolutely is a difference in sound between (some) amps.

Thanks

 

[Mart68]

I know I'll get my head in the gallows with this response, but I'll say absolutely! Last week I tried the wiim amp, Marantz M1, YAMAHA R-N800A and Hegel H190 on the same set of speakers (REVIVAL AUDIO SPRINT 3) in the same setup/room. The latter three were somehow similar in overall sound, but the wiim amp sounded very different - and unfortunately not in a good way. It was obvious to everyone who listened. We couldn't make a scientific ABX comparison, but we could change amps without knowing which were which and somewhat levelmatch. 4/5 tries could easily tell the wiim amp from the others, and the 1/5 was because the speaker cables were put in with wrong polarity in the amp, that there could not be heard a difference from the listener.

It's maybe not fair to compare a cheap wiim amp with the other amps, but the difference was very noticeable. Soundstage (defined by me as sound width and X/Y/Z axis instrument placement) and bottom end was missing compared to the other amps. I know my answer will not be well taken on this forum, but I don't care. I'm very much a science guy, but the difference with the wiim amp compared to the others was so noticeable, that it could not be ignored.

Of course room acoustics will have a huge impact, and way more than any 1000.000$ system can ever fix. In my dedicated (rectangular) listening room I can place my speakers and the end walls and get crappy sound. If I place them on the "short" walls, I get much much better sound. You could get satisfactory sound with the wiim, but my experience with real world comparisons is, that there absolutely is a difference in sound between (some) amps.

Thanks

I can't find measurements for the speakers but are they a challenging load? I wouldn't expect the Wiim to perform optimally with a difficult load, the other amps may do better.

This is the most common reason for genuine differences in the 'sound of amplifiers'. Swap the speaker for something less challenging and the amp that sounded different now sounds like the others.

 

[TSX]

I can't find measurements for the speakers but are they a challenging load? I wouldn't expect the Wiim to perform optimally with a difficult load, the other amps may do better.

This is the most common reason for genuine differences in the 'sound of amplifiers'. Swap the speaker for something less challenging and the amp that sounded different now sounds like the others.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

but my experience with real world comparisons is, that there absolutely is a difference in sound between (some) amps

Without setting levels to be identical (within 0.1V), ensuring all amplifiers are operating within their design window and using fully unsighted, gapless testing (where even the change-operator can't know which device is being used), you can not make that assertion.

 

[Mart68]

View attachment 388582

Thanks, but insufficient, regrettably. Need to see impedance and phase angle against frequency, or power cube test.