Best way to connect a subwoofer for music listening

[LTig]

If I understand you, you're saying that if the amp isn't filtering out bass to my main speakers, it would be better to run speaker wires from the amp to the sub and from the sub to the main speakers. This is to allow the sub to filter out the bass going to my main speakers?

Yes.

According to the manual for my subwoofer, when the sub and speakers are connected this way, there is no high pass filter. The entire signal is passed to the mains.

Then you're lost, because there is no way to roll off the mains.

 

[GGroch]

......Then you're lost, because there is no way to roll off the mains.

"Lost" may be a strong word for describing how more than 90% of two channel systems with subs are connected. Only a tiny percentage of quality two channel amps have high pass filtering options for the main speakers. The vast majority of active subs sold also do not have any high pass to mains options.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each connection method. Steve Stone's article here describes them well I think.

The 4th paragraph that starts, "The 2nd way to hook up" describes the full range mains method and its benefits/shortcomings. Note that on his own $20,000 plus system, he is hooking it up this 2nd way, with no mains low frequency roll off.

I am a lifetime audiophile, and it sounds like you are too. I guess LAF's can disagree on this one.

 

[LTig]

"Lost" may be a strong word for describing how more than 90% of two channel systems with subs are connected. Only a tiny percentage of quality two channel amps have high pass filtering options for the main speakers. The vast majority of active subs sold also do not have any high pass to mains options.

This is not good. I understand that a passive roll off filter for high power output is expensive and difficult to design because the impedance of the mains is not known. But at least the line level output should have a roll off included.

Probably most people nowadays buy suboofers for HT usage and then the AV-amp does all the filtering.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each connection method. Steve Stone's article here describes them well I think.

The 4th paragraph that starts, "The 2nd way to hook up" describes the full range mains method and its benefits/shortcomings. Note that on his own $20,000 plus system, he is hooking it up this 2nd way, with no mains low frequency roll off.

Interesting. With big enough mains the 2nd way may work, but for smaller ones (e.g mine, a small 3 way active) the biggest improvement was not the deeper and powerful bass but the much cleaner upper bass and mid range due to rolling them off.

I am a lifetime audiophile, and it sounds like you are too.

It started in my teens.

I guess LAF's can disagree on this one.

LAF? Beats me, not found even here.

 

[villason]

Actually these are the correct ways if you have the Speakon connector in your sub:

Class A/B Amp:

https://rel.net/how-to-connect-your-rel-to-a-class-a-b-amp/

Class D Amp:

https://rel.net/how-to-connect-a-rel-to-a-class-d-amp/

 

[mschool]

DON'T Use the Line Outs for a sub on the Onkyo 9010. The manual says it is a fixed volume line out. These used to be called tape outs (its not a preamp out with variable volume). The subwoofer will not change volume if you hook it there. (Caps used cause if you do it by accident it could be very loud and damage something.)

OK, I am new this party so forgive me for being a total nube. I am starting a system from scratch and hopefully this thread will PING the former contributors. My TT is a Denon DP47F, my CD player is a Denon DCD 1550 AR, and my amp is the Onkyo A-9010. I currently have no speakers and am listening to music via Sennheiser HD 558 headphones. I bought all the gear listed for $700USD, and I want a speaker system for my small room that is 8.59 Feet wide, 14.33 Feet long and 7.74 Feet high. I may purchase two towers or I might purchase two bookshelves. But part of the consideration will be a subwoofer, and I assume it should be an active one. But if I don't use the LINE OUT for the subwoofer, and there are only terminals for 2 speakers, how do I wire a third element to the Onkyo A-9010, specifically a subwoofer? Appreciate any help folks can lend. Thank you very much.

 

[daftcombo]

"Lost" may be a strong word for describing how more than 90% of two channel systems with subs are connected. Only a tiny percentage of quality two channel amps have high pass filtering options for the main speakers. The vast majority of active subs sold also do not have any high pass to mains options.

Do you know how a JBL 310S acts in that regard when a pair of 305p mkII is connected to the sub?

 

[LTig]

OK, I am new this party so forgive me for being a total nube. I am starting a system from scratch and hopefully this thread will PING the former contributors. My TT is a Denon DP47F, my CD player is a Denon DCD 1550 AR, and my amp is the Onkyo A-9010. I currently have no speakers and am listening to music via Sennheiser HD 558 headphones. I bought all the gear listed for $700USD, and I want a speaker system for my small room that is 8.59 Feet wide, 14.33 Feet long and 7.74 Feet high. I may purchase two towers or I might purchase two bookshelves. But part of the consideration will be a subwoofer, and I assume it should be an active one. But if I don't use the LINE OUT for the subwoofer, and there are only terminals for 2 speakers, how do I wire a third element to the Onkyo A-9010, specifically a subwoofer? Appreciate any help folks can lend. Thank you very much.

You can't. You need an active sub with speaker inputs and high pass filtered speaker output. Those exist ( e.g the old Kef PSW 2000) but don't expect good integration. In the PSW 2000 the high pass is a meager non polarized 300 uF elcap and the cutoff frequency depends heavily on the impedance of the sat speakers.

 

[LTig]

Do you know how a JBL 310S acts in that regard when a pair of 305p mkII is connected to the sub?

AFAIK the 310S has high passed outputs for the subs sats, switchable for 80 or 120 Hz cut off.

 

[daftcombo]

AFAIK the 310S has high passed outputs for the subs, switchable for 80 or 120 Hz cut off.

Do you mean low-pass for the sub?

 

[Willem]

Like most subwoofers, my subwoofer (B&W PV1d) only has a low pass filter (though highly adjustable, for slope, frequency and phase) that I have set to 34 Hz. My power amplifier (Quad 606-2) does not have a high pass filter, so my Quad 2805 main speakers receive the full range signal. I have two reasons to consider some high pass filtering of the main speakers. The first is to relieve both power amplifier and electrostats from some of the heavy lifting at the lowest frequencies. The second is that I have quite successfully equalized the subwoofer using the subwoofer only Antimode 8033 but this does not reduce the room modes at those same frequencies that are generated by the electrostats that go down pretty low as well. I did some REW measurements, and these show that this is a real issue. I had some success filtering them out with the filters in my RME ADI-2, but there is clearly room for improvement.
So I was wondering if people have any experiences with the Harrison Labs Fmods. Maybe I should add that I am also using Harrison Labs 12 dB inline attenuators to reduce the 2 Volt rca output from my ADI-2 to the 0.5 Volt input sensitivity of the Quad power amp.

 

[GGroch]

Do you mean low-pass for the sub?

The owners manual for the 3 series, page 14 under bass management describes how it works. You can switch between an 80 Hz crossover (low pass to the sub, high pass to the XLR outputs to monitors), 120 Hz in Club position, or External which cuts off the XLR outputs all together.

 

[LTig]

Do you mean low-pass for the sub?

No, I mean high-pass for the sats, but write subs. Going to edit it now.

 

[GGroch]

....But if I don't use the LINE OUT for the subwoofer, and there are only terminals for 2 speakers, how do I wire a third element to the Onkyo A-9010, specifically a subwoofer? Appreciate any help folks can lend. Thank you very much.

Many excellent subwoofers have high level (speaker level) inputs and speaker outputs and if you pick one that matches your main speakers and room well, they will work fine in your system. I have specced and installed hundreds of systems that work this way with excellent results.

There are theoretical arguments that speaker level outputs to subwoofers are far superior (See the REL links in Villason's post above), as well as arguments that they are much worse (see LTig's posts). Both of these views are way out of the mainstream.

Mschool, I do think you should consider whether your system will perform better with a subwoofer. Many bookshelf and tower speakers will provide excellent bass in a room that size. Choosing a speaker that does that, and locating it correctly in the room, eliminates any subwoofer issues, real or theoretical.

 

[Willem]

I agree that a subwoofer may not be a good idea in such a small room. The smaller the room, the higher the transition/Schroeder frequency below which you will suffer room modes. In this small room that will be somewhere between 250Hz and 300 Hz. Put a subwoofer in such a small room and you are injecting trouble into the acoustics. For such small rooms like mobile recording studios the BBC once designed a small monitor like the LS3/5a, with much reduced low frequency output, and a crossover optimized for near-field listening. The modern Harbeth P3ESR is its distant descendent. I think you will get much better bang for the buck by giving up on a sub and getting better mini monitors. I use P3ESRs in a study twice the size of your listening room, and even so I needed to equalize them a bit to reduce bass boom.

 

[daftcombo]

The owners manual for the 3 series, page 14 under bass management describes how it works. You can switch between an 80 Hz crossover (low pass to the sub, high pass to the XLR outputs to monitors), 120 Hz in Club position, or External which cuts off the XLR outputs all together.

I had read that page already but wasn't sure if my interpretatiln was correct.

I might give that sub a try if I find it at a good price then.

Thanks!