Best way to Add HDMI 4K/3D video delay?

[Dacapalooza]

List of all devices that Delay HDMI video:

• RadiancePro - Add internal video delay. Only HDMI product in the world that even acknowledges the issue. From Manual: In the past video has often lagged the audio causing lip-sync issues. However, now with advanced audio codecs, such as ATMOS, and DSP enabled speakers, sometimes it is the audio that lags the video. The Radiance Pro can delay the video in frame increments...
• Roland VC 1 DL - I have it. It only works on 1080p. Not 3D and not 4K. Tried with Oppo 103, 203, & FireStick.
• AVR / PrePro with Room Correction?- Here is where I could use your help. I actually got the VC 1 DL in 2016 because I stopped using a PrePro and theorized that AVR's clock/sync the video & audio together all the way down to the acoustic delay & did not want to lose this functionality. Now I am unsure, upon further reflection.
  • Perhaps AVR's assume 20ms delay in video so will allow 20ms delay in audio w/o bothering to reclock/sync the audio & video? But what if big room AND acoustic delay 50ft/50ms? Do AVR's at that point delay the video? If AVR's do delay the video this could be a great work around - to use an AVR as a video delay device? Send just the video to any crappy AVR, run it's calibration in some other big room perhaps, so AVR thinks big acoustic delay. Use Sync-One2 and repeat AVR calibration closer/further to speakers to fine tune the delay?
• Oppo negative LipSync entry? - This is unclear. A contradiction in their manual. If this works, which I think it does, this is best option!
  • It says It is not possible to put audio ahead of video using this setting. - so fine we can't do video delay.
  • But it also says: ...the main decoder chip automatically applies an audio delay in order to optimize audio video synchronization. The negative manual settings reduce the automatic audio delay. So it sounds like it actually DOES put audio ahead of video. Since, it does not defeat the video processing. So if the video processing takes 20ms, video will still be delayed by 20ms and audio not delayed. If QA were to test it - the video should be delayed by the video processing time. Audio will not be delayed. So audio IS expected to be ahead. It is like Oppo is trying to be technical about who is doing what. Like this is a legal doc. But that is irrelevant. Bottom line is the audio ahead? Me thinks yes!
  • Also there is another contradiction in the WWW. Many threads say the negative setting is only for HDMI but the manual says it is for all outputs:
    

    The delay can be adjusted in 10ms steps and within the range of -100ms to +200ms. The delayed time will be applied to all output terminals including HDMI, Coaxial, Optical, Stereo (or 7.1) outputs

    I am using the 7.1 outputs/Vanity. Maybe the threads I've found are stale and Oppo made updates?
  • This is what I do now. Set the LipSync to -20ms.

I have need of video delay.
My system: Oppo 203 -> Vanity -> Trinnov D-Mon -> Okto8 -> Benchmarks -> Revels
My audio processing is 60ms (Trinnov D-Mon: 49ms; Acoustic delay: 11ms) and my projector is 40ms. (JVC NX5). So in higher mathematics I need 20ms video delay.

I am not experiencing lipsync issues per say. I used to. Before I upgraded to 4K. Trinnov & Vanity were slower & my PJ faster. So the Roland was perfect.
It was always my dream to have perfect LipSync. Primarily I am BD/24fps. So a frame is 41ms. So I get that theoretically anything less than 41ms should be imperceptible. Still want it.

I have a couple of weeks off Christmas, so plan on getting the sync-one2. This seams like fun project. Get my actual delays and somehow fix. Test the Oppo negative LipSync entries & share. So humanity will know about this negative entry. Unless someone here already knows/tested?
I can even test HDMI vs 7.1 output as I have 3 Oppo/vanities.

Here I thought everything that there is to test has been performed on the Oppo...

 

[Dacapalooza]

I would think that AVR's must sync A/V nowadays? OLEDS are 14ms. Average acoustic delay is 10-11ms. RC must take more than 3ms. Would make more sense to sync A/V at the acoustic delay and user punches in the video delay in the AVR's LipSync entry. So if 11ms acoustic delay + 14ms audio/video processing - the AVR should sync the A/V at 25ms -and user should punch in 14ms LipSync. If AVR's did not. Anyone with OLED will not be happy!
And what about the Trinnov Altitudes? How can it send video before it finished processing the audio a whopping 50ms diff?

 

[infinitesymphony]

I found your thread during a search for info about the Roland VC-1-DL in the quest to solve my own video delay issue with an older TV's HDMI inputs (audio is always too late no matter what mode, even after factory reset, with no options changed, etc.). Curious to see if anyone else has found other solutions.

Here was my thread from a while back:

Streaming device with lip sync adjustment

I'm trying to find a streaming device (supports Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, et al) that has a lip sync adjustment setting. No matter what I try--Game mode, default settings, you name it--the audio is always slightly behind the video on my TV. It's close enough that others may not notice, but it...

www.audiosciencereview.com

From your description, it looks like the VC-1-DL would be suitable for my purposes, but I think the price ($625 USD) is ridiculous.

 

[-Matt-]

I would think that AVR's must sync A/V nowadays?

Unfortunately this still seems to be an issue. AVRs have for many years been able to delay audio by several ms. However, in your initial post you were asking about video delay.

Video delay = negative audio delay

How can it send video before it finished processing the audio a whopping 50ms diff?

These delays work by having a memory buffer. The data rate per second for digital audio is much lower than it is for digital video. Therefore, the same size of memory buffer could offer a longer delay for audio than it could for video. In fact, the processing and memory requirements for a video delay buffer are much higher than for audio delay, and so video delay is rarely implemented.

This is a problem, especially with ARC eARC (even though these supposedly include auto lip-sync). All auto lip-sync does is set audio delay to a number agreed by the source and display over HDMI handshake.

Before ARC, signals typically passed from the source, through the AVR, to the TV. Since video processing in the tv was assumed to take longer than audio processing, all the AVR had to do was add a small delay and AV sync could be achieved.

Now with ARC the TV contains the source, and the audio alone is sent to the AVR. The TV can display the video almost immediately but the audio has to be sent to the AVR, and room EQ has to be applied. This can result in the video being ahead of the audio. No amount of audio delay can fix this (well except for negative values which are not typically supported by AVRs).

So, this brings us almost full circle back to your original question...
Yes, we do need video delay.
No it doesn't seem to be offered in current AVRs.
It is a feature that we should demand be included by AVR manufacturers.

 

[-Matt-]

By the way certain types of room eq setup can exacerbate this...

Eg. If there is a large difference in the distance from each speaker to the mlp. Suppose you sit fairly close to your tv (1m) but you have a sub in the corner of the room (5m). For speaker distance correction, the sound from the closest speaker (centre) has to be delayed so that it arrives at the same time as sound from the furthest speaker (sub). The difference in mlp distance between the centre speaker and the sub is 4m:

4m / 343m/s = 11.7ms

Just for speaker timing in this setup, the AVR must add at least 11.7ms of audio delay to the centre channel (dialogue) relative to the video. Add a bit of room eq processing time, or a larger speaker distance discrepency, and it is easy for the audio to be delayed by more than the 14ms latency figure that you quoted for OLED video processing. (And hence to run into this difficult to fix, video ahead of audio, sync problem).