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Best value streamer with no DAC

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I'd really like to know what they mean too. I really like my Topping D30! Hopefully they could clarify but not sure what ask them. (I studied Poltical Science and Philosophy in grad school so I'm out of my comfort zone!)
Ok, so they say Songbird outputs 16 bit from its digital output and if an incoming source is already 16 bit it is not converted to analog first but just output digital, and for something that is not already a 16 bit source a DAC connected to Songbird's toslink output can let you know what bitrate is coming through but they say it is not first converted to analog and then back to digital, so the analog performance of the Songbird should have no relevance, so it accepts file bitrates beyond 16 bit but not clear if they are passed through digitally at more than 16 bit,
as to whether higher than 16 bit audio is better on playback that is another debate Lol
 

Paulz

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Thanks so much. I understand that better now. But I still don't grasp whether there is any (audible or otherwise) difference to using its aux out compared to using the optical out to another dac.

I just set up the songbird a few minutes ago and it seems to sound fine but I was just wo(a)dering.
 
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Thanks so much. I understand that better now. But I still don't grasp whether there is any (audible or otherwise) difference to using its aux out compared to using the optical out to another dac.

I just set up the songbird a few minutes ago and it seems to sound fine but I was just wo(a)dering.

if you want to use an external DAC and have a revealing overall system (amp and speakers/headphones) you'd get a little different sound, I find voices and midrange instrumentation more "real" using certain DACs
 
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Saffy

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Hi All, I thought that I would post why a cheaper RPI home kit for pure streaming is not automatically better value-wise than a store-bought solution. In this case it's an argument for a Pro-ject S2 Ultra Streamer according to the Ultra's co-designer: John Westlake

Here's his case:

In answer to “why the extra cost” over the standard RPi3 – it’s required to give a basic explanation of the RPi3 weakness WRT high end audio applications (remember is designed as a lowest cost computer platform NOT a highend audio streamer). These weakness in no way are a criticism of the RPi3 – but rather its design limitation from my perspective as an audio designer. Basically its weakness are all based on Clock Phase Noise (Jitter) and local PSU noise (which directly impacts the Jitter performance) and also the resultant local RF emissions:-

1. The USB HUB / LAN IC is clocked by the CM3 SoC which has significantly higher jitter then an external Clock oscillator. More detrimental is that fact that clock phase noise is heavily correlated with the SoC software processing – resulting in Data correlated jitter.

2. The USB HUB / LAN IC PLL clock circuits are powered from the switching supply rail that also powers the SoC Memory, so as data is “processed” though the memory this causes modulation of the PSu Rail directly correlated with the Data patterns which then modulates the critical PLL in the USB HUB / LAN which is used as our USB “source” via this noisy PSU rail.

3. As one would expect little care has been taken with the quality of the 5V rail for USB DAC power – in fact its really pretty poor by “Audio” standards.

4. There are multiple “free running” switching regulators on the RPi PCB – whose clocks are not related to the USB clock Rate so there switching products are free to induced multiple / complex RF and Ground noise spurie in the system. I could list more weakness, but you can start to appreciate the “Deficiencies” (not unexpected) of the simple Rpi3.

1. The little ProJect streamer tackles these issues by making the USB 24MHZ clock the system “Clock master” and cleanly generating the LAN’s 25MHz clock and themultiple local switching supply’s operating from a divided down synchronised frequency of this 24MHz.

2. Great care has been taken with the internal PSU’s – I count 8 low noise PSU’s of the top of my head.

3. The USB host signal from the CM3 is RF filtered and USB “Detoxed” (the poor Phase noise of the CM3 USB Host controller) is attenuated by two Cascoded USB Hub bridges (and RF filter) resulting in a much attenuated USB Jitter on the “DAC” USB output.

4. The DAC 5V feed has a very low noise regulator – whose voltage and current can be monitored via the streamer software.

5. The DAC 5V USB voltage output can be disabled via software for DAC’s that don’t require 5V.

6. An external USB bypass to the DAC USB output is proved, this bypass “Detox’s” the external USB signal in the same manor as applied to the RPi CM3 USB Host output.

7. 16GB onboard eMMC is available for OS / software & local files. Sadly, all this makes for an expensive hardware solution – with “low volume” production costs are factored (ProJect will manufacture thousands Pcs – not millions) – the end selling price is just a fact of European low volume manufacturing – this is not China manufactured mass market pricing…

"Sorry for the errors in the published documentation / marketing – no text is run past me for proof reading…"
 
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Bamyasi

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Not sure what you are talking about. There could be no jitter with the asynchronous USB protocol. This is not a DAC, just a digital streamer (aka bridge). Jitter happens when you convert digital stream into analog signal. No jitter within digital domain otherwise all your data backups on external USB hard drive would rot and turn into garbage eventually. This however does not happen, so USB is obviously bit perfect.

Ground loop noise is another story but competent DAC design should reject most of it. If your DAC does not, you should buy a new DAC instead of spending money on another snake oil product.
 

tw99

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Westlake's "crowd-funded DAC", that's a joke. He took around £100K from people on another forum several years ago and has delivered exactly nothing to them since. In the meantime the industry has moved on a lot and DACs are more or less a commodity item anyway.
 

JSmith

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Do you know anyone who can package that for me? Who offers that service.
It's stupid isn't it... it's either a $120 self assembly, or $500 plus for some fancy streamer.

One would think someone would be making a killing off assembling Pi4's in a case all pre-installed as media streaming devices?



JSmith
 
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Saffy

Saffy

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The point was to shed light on why there can be value for an audiophile to buy store bought over a kit. It's often not enough to simply throw a few hardware components together and automatically expect optimal results. IMO the superiority of the Project Streamer is worth the extra $500 if your goal is audiophile performance from your source..
 

BDWoody

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The point was to shed light on why there can be value for an audiophile to buy store bought over a kit.

That was more like cutting/pasting someone else's advertising copy.

I'm glad my many (discontinued but available) $15 Chromecast Audios are all I need.

...if your goal is audiophile performance from your source..

I don't need audiophile performance, I prefer the real kind.
 

tw99

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Technically, an RPI into a good quality USB DAC can be as good as anything else. It's fine to pay more for pride of ownership, shiny boxes, software that you prefer etc. But let's not start pretending that sound quality has much to do with it, or at least not on this forum, there are plenty of other places where you can do that.
 
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Saffy

Saffy

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Technically, an RPI into a good quality USB DAC can be as good as anything else. It's fine to pay more for pride of ownership, shiny boxes, software that you prefer etc. But let's not start pretending that sound quality has much to do with it, or at least not on this forum, there are plenty of other places where you can do that.
Really?
 

somebodyelse

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Measurements of well engineered DAC performance with different USB sources, such as archimago's, show variations consistent with normal run to run variation. It's a similar story for the various 'USB cleaner' type products tested here so far failing to produce the performance changes that would be expected if the issues cited were really a problem. There are poorly engineered DACs that suffer measurably from things like USB power supply noise, such as the Modi 2, but the answer is to get a better DAC, not pander to its deficiencies. Westlake's statements may be individually correct, but they have no bearing on the output of a properly designed USB DAC. Possible exceptions to this are the eMMC (not an audio performance claim) and the effect of ground leakage currents which are a possible issue when mixing USB and unbalanced interconnects (or balanced if there's a pin 1 problem.)
 
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Saffy

Saffy

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Thank you for your objective input. Question: given that a decent DAC can solve hash upstream, is there no benefit to reducing some of the heavy lifting the DAC has to perform?
 

sandymc

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Not sure what you are talking about. There could be no jitter with the asynchronous USB protocol.

Actually, he's correct on the RPi3 - note he mentioned the RPi3 specifically. It has to do with (a) the USB interface and a bunch of other stuff sharing the same internal bus, and (b) a not very well written driver that Raspberry doesn't want to update, nothing to do with the USB protocol itself.

However, there's a really simple solution - use the RPi4. Internal design is different, and there's no bus contention.
 

somebodyelse

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Actually, he's correct on the RPi3 - note he mentioned the RPi3 specifically. It has to do with (a) the USB interface and a bunch of other stuff sharing the same internal bus, and (b) a not very well written driver that Raspberry doesn't want to update, nothing to do with the USB protocol itself.

However, there's a really simple solution - use the RPi4. Internal design is different, and there's no bus contention.
That might be a point if he wasn't using the CM3 which shares the same USB OTG interface as the RPi3. Do you know which bus the Pro-ject uses for its ethernet controller?
 

SMc

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It's stupid isn't it... it's either a $120 self assembly, or $500 plus for some fancy streamer.

One would think someone would be making a killing off assembling Pi4's in a case all pre-installed as media streaming devices?
Like this? Out-of-production but a new model on the way:

https://bryston.com/bdp-π-digital-player/

I like my Bryston streamer (a different model) but it's not functionally different from my Squeezebox Touch or my CCA.
 

somebodyelse

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Thank you for your objective input. Question: given that a decent DAC can solve hash upstream, is there no benefit to reducing some of the heavy lifting the DAC has to perform?
If there was a benefit it should have showed up in the measurements of the 'USB cleaner' type products.
 

Bamyasi

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Actually, he's correct on the RPi3 - note he mentioned the RPi3 specifically. It has to do with (a) the USB interface and a bunch of other stuff sharing the same internal bus, and (b) a not very well written driver that Raspberry doesn't want to update, nothing to do with the USB protocol itself.

However, there's a really simple solution - use the RPi4. Internal design is different, and there's no bus contention.
No he is not. The problems with the RPi3 kernel USB driver has nothing to do with jitter, which is a very specific type of distortion occurring when converting digital audio stream to analogue, due to digital clock extraction and synchronization errors. Poor RPi3 USB driver performance with some Linux versions is a completely different and unrelated story, which has already been stressed on this forum several times before.
 

sandymc

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No he is not. The problems with the RPi3 kernel USB driver has nothing to do with jitter, which is a very specific type of distortion occurring when converting digital audio stream to analogue, due to digital clock extraction and synchronization errors. Poor RPi3 USB driver performance with some Linux versions is a completely different and unrelated story, which has already been stressed on this forum several times before.

Umm, I think that if you read what I wrote, as opposed to what others wrote, you'll see I never mentioned jitter. The RPi3 can have a form of bus contention that leads to - for lack of a better description - audible artifacts. The RPi4 doesn't have that. So to the extent that anyone has any issues with audio artifacts on a Raspberry 3 streamer, there isn't a need to go to something like an "Ultra Streamer". Just upgrade to a RPi4 and be happy.
 

somebodyelse

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Umm, I think that if you read what I wrote, as opposed to what others wrote, you'll see I never mentioned jitter. The RPi3 can have a form of bus contention that leads to - for lack of a better description - audible artifacts.
Except that it's not bus contention on the USB, because it happens even when the wired ethernet disabled, and the audio interface as the only USB device plugged in. Network traffic can make it worse, but it's not the cause. It probably is something in the USB-OTG driver, and it's definitely affected by what software you're running. I've never run into it running piCorePlayer, but find brutefir a reliable trigger (unless you pin it to a single cpu core...)
The RPi4 doesn't have that. So to the extent that anyone has any issues with audio artifacts on a Raspberry 3 streamer, there isn't a need to go to something like an "Ultra Streamer". Just upgrade to a RPi4 and be happy.
This bit we agree on.
 
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