Best three-way (or 2.1) monitor for small studio below USD/EUR 4.000

[teashea]

I fully agree and am aware of the fact that monitors should sound flat. But when I listened to some (known for their flatness) monitors the other day, some really well known and greatly mixed/mastered pop songs just sounded off on some monitors. Like the high end was just too detailed, too fatiguing. For instance, it made different elements in a snare/clap/hi hat/perc layering, that were clearly intended as to sound as a 'whole' sound loose and piercing. Could be the room though! I sort of caught myself thinking that if a certain monitor made tracks I know very well (and I love very much in all kinds of listening environments and I know are mixed and mastered by the best in the game) sound bad, than I probably should not go for those monitors. Especially since I am not a mastering engineer for instance (luckily other people do that for me), I am mainly a producer who wants to be inspired to som extent while working first and foremost. But getting super neutral monitors will certainly benefit the end product, so of course I am still aiming for that. It's an interesting ongoing discussion in my head.

That said, I listened to the Neumann KH310 today. And now I want the Neumann KH310. Shit. Just wonderful, clean, precise, flat. Was impressed by the bass response too. And that was even without a well treated room.

Some forumscanning later, I feel like the KH150 might be even better for me. Also great reviews everywhere, and no noticeable downgrade to the KH310 as far as I can tell (right?). The two way design and smaller design might be better for my small room. And the low end extension is insane for a 6,5 woofer. I mean, it is just crazy how they owned every other brand in that respect.

The price is EUR 1600 here. If I'm spending that kind of money, it's basically the same as the HEDD Type 20 Mk2 and the KH310. What do you think of those three compared in a relatively small room (the KH150, KH310 and the HEDD Type 20 mk2)? Also waiting for Amir to do some reviews on the Adam A7V, A77H and A8H. Really curious how those would compare, but they will not be as flat as the Neumann's. They seem to be in a different league in that respect.

Flat is flat. There is no magic. If the monitor has flat frequency response and low distortion, then the music played through it will sound the way it was recorded. It may be that the music you are playing is poorly recorded or mixed. That is not the fault of the monitor if the monitor is doing it job.

Some so called monitors do not have a flat frequency response and others have too much distortion. That is why the tests here on ASR are so important.

I agree with you that it is amazing how good the Neumann monitors are - and especially the new KH150. I spent a couple more hours today listening to mine with many different types of music including blues, jazz, classical and rock. It handles them all well - of course - becuase it has a very flat frequency response and low distortion.

Neumann engineers did a superlative job in designing the woofer and the DSP for the woofer to all it to provide such low distortion in the bass. This was not luck - it is solid intelligent audio engineering.

It was interesting to compare the same songs on the KH150's and 100 pound, 3 12" woofer Legacy Focus speakers (not monitors).

I wish you well in your decision making process. Don't let the snake oil get you.

 

[teashea]

Go for the KH310 because its a sealed box which means the FR does not drop like a stone compared to a vented box. With room gain it might be possible to get useful bass SPL down to 30 Hz.

I have found nothing useful below 34 Hz with my KH310's but they certainly do a nice job down to that level. At 40Hz, I cannot tell anything in terms of a meaninful difference between my KH150's and KH310's. But then, 98 percent of songs do not have any signficant content below 40 Hz. Indeed, this is by design. Music producers know the rarity of listeners who have systems that go that low.

 

[unpluggged]

What do you think of those three compared in a relatively small room (the KH150, KH310 and the HEDD Type 20 mk2)?

They all sound great, but HEDD hiss more. Type 20 MK2 actually hiss a bit less than Type 07 MK2, but their hiss is still very audible in nearfield setting. Neumanns, on the other hand, are inaudible unless you stick your ear against the tweeter. HEDDs also have much tighter directivity and very narrow sweet spot. What I also like about Neumanns is that they have a wide range of graduated sensitivity options which helps me better match them to my ADI-2 Pro's output levels. HEDD's analog input is a bit too sensitive for me.

And what further complicates things for HEDD is their questionable reliability. One of my Type 07 MK2s failed after less than a year, and it seems to be not an isolated incident, according to various reports on forums and product reviews. In fact, one user said in their review on Thomann that their replacement unit had also failed within few months.

 

[teashea]

They all sound great, but HEDD hiss more. Type 20 MK2 actually hiss a bit less than Type 07 MK2, but their hiss is still very audible in nearfield setting. Neumanns, on the other hand, are inaudible unless you stick your ear against the tweeter. HEDDs also have much tighter directivity and very narrow sweet spot. What I also like about Neumanns is that they have a wide range of graduated sensitivity options which helps me better match them to my ADI-2 Pro's output levels. HEDD's analog input is a bit too sensitive for me.

And what further complicates things for HEDD is their questionable reliability. One of my Type 07 MK2s failed after less than a year, and it seems to be not an isolated incident, according to various reports on forums and product reviews. In fact, one user said in their review on Thomann that their replacement unit had also failed within few months.

Interesting. For very nearfield work it is important for the monitors to have a very low noise floor. Not all of them do. Neumann makes great efforts to ensure that their monitors all have low noise floors.

 

[BerryJ]

Okay thanks a lot - the Neumanns seem the way to go. I have heard a lot of stories of HEDD's failing too, don't want to take that risk.

One more question: don't you guys think in my situation (small room, 11 x 9 ft / 3,3 x 2,7 m & listening distance 1,2 m) the KH150 would give me less placement issues? The KH310 is a lot bigger and wider, and quite some people say that they are hard to place and that they need some distance to sound right and get the full stereo image.

Also, the KH150 is brand new and has all the DSP stuff and MA-1 integration the KH310 misses. I certainly don't want to buy KH310 AND subs, but I could manage with just Sonarworks. But still, the KH150 is more modern and future proof. Only negative about the KH150 compared to the KH310 is the low-frequency group delay, as mentioned in their SOS review (otherwise very positive - see here). 27 vs 12 ms of delay at 40ms. Would they sound less quick with regard to transients that what I have now for instance (Adam A7V)?

 

[teashea]

Okay thanks a lot - the Neumanns seem the way to go. I have heard a lot of stories of HEDD's failing too, don't want to take that risk.

One more question: don't you guys think in my situation (small room, 11 x 9 ft / 3,3 x 2,7 m & listening distance 1,2 m) the KH150 would give me less placement issues? The KH310 is a lot bigger and wider, and quite some people say that they are hard to place and that they need some distance to sound right and get the full stereo image.

Also, the KH150 is brand new and has all the DSP stuff and MA-1 integration the KH310 misses. I certainly don't want to buy KH310 AND subs, but I could manage with just Sonarworks. But still, the KH150 is more modern and future proof. Only negative about the KH150 compared to the KH310 is the low-frequency group delay, as mentioned in their SOS review (otherwise very positive - see here). 27 vs 12 ms of delay at 40ms. Would they sound less quick with regard to transients that what I have now for instance (Adam A7V)?

yes

 

[unpluggged]

One more question: don't you guys think in my situation (small room, 11 x 9 ft / 3,3 x 2,7 m & listening distance 1,2 m) the KH150 would give me less placement issues?

Yes, for your situation I'd definitely go for a pair of KH 150. I had my Type 07 MK2s at a similar distance in a room twice as large and had no issues with their SPL or bass extension, and the KH 150 is even more capable in this regard. And its modern features make it a more well-rounded package in comparison to the KH 310, in my opinion.

 

[astcal]

I'd go with 2.1 setup: Neumann KH750 + KH 80's + MA-1, less than US$3000. I bet you they will sound the best if your studio.

 

[dfuller]

Flat is flat. There is no magic. If the monitor has flat frequency response and low distortion, then the music played through it will sound the way it was recorded. It may be that the music you are playing is poorly recorded or mixed. That is not the fault of the monitor if the monitor is doing it job.

Some so called monitors do not have a flat frequency response and others have too much distortion. That is why the tests here on ASR are so important.

I agree with you that it is amazing how good the Neumann monitors are - and especially the new KH150. I spent a couple more hours today listening to mine with many different types of music including blues, jazz, classical and rock. It handles them all well - of course - becuase it has a very flat frequency response and low distortion.

Neumann engineers did a superlative job in designing the woofer and the DSP for the woofer to all it to provide such low distortion in the bass. This was not luck - it is solid intelligent audio engineering.

It was interesting to compare the same songs on the KH150's and 100 pound, 3 12" woofer Legacy Focus speakers (not monitors).

I wish you well in your decision making process. Don't let the snake oil get you.

You should probably consider putting up some treatment and moving your LP to be not at the center of your room, FWIW - that's a lot of hard surfaces.

 

[teashea]

You should probably consider putting up some treatment and moving your LP to be not at the center of your room, FWIW - that's a lot of hard surfaces.

I very much agree that treatment is important. The type of treatment depends on several factors, including the distance of the LP from the monitors. Very nearfield listening requires different treatment. My listening positions are from 1 to 1.3 meters from the monitors. This is very nearfield.

There is a lot of treatment - blended into the aesthetics (just like almost all of the cabling is hidden). Moreover the LP of the desk and the console are each far from the center of this particular room. The room is more than 40 feet long. You cannot see it from that photo so here are some more photos of the multiple rooms.

But your points are well taken ----- A room needs appropriate treatment and the LP should never be at the center of a room.

 

[Alex333]

If you like the AMT tweeter and want lows, compact design as well 3-way then check these out :

Fluid Audio Image 2 - Professional 3-Way Studio Monitor

Discover the new Fluid Audio Image 2 3-way Reference Studio Monitor with closed cabinet design, AMT tweeter, and SoundID reference integration for precise audio reproduction.

fluidaudio.com

Not sure where you are located, but as i know they will arrive in US mid Feb and Europe beginning of Feb.

Can’t recommend them, tried them and the ATM sounds harsh, Bass is really boomy and way overpriced…

 

[Knightfal]

Can’t recommend them, tried them and the ATM sounds harsh, Bass is really boomy and way overpriced…

Where did you try them?a friend and I had a listening session at a dealer last week and bass was tight and went low. Did not find the AMT harsh at all, instead airy and fast. I don't see any of the reviews mention boomy bass or harsh AMT either. So very strange. Mids stood out well and was very detailed. Asked dealer if SoundID was loaded, and it wasn't, they did not receive SoundID Reference yet. Will borrow them after Easter and try it at home. But first impression was they sounded big, imaging was superb. KH310 and Genelec 8341 was in the same room. The image 2 did perform very well vs those was our impression.

 

[teashea]

Where did you try them?a friend and I had a listening session at a dealer last week and bass was tight and went low. Did not find the AMT harsh at all, instead airy and fast. I don't see any of the reviews mention boomy bass or harsh AMT either. So very strange. Mids stood out well and was very detailed. Asked dealer if SoundID was loaded, and it wasn't, they did not receive SoundID Reference yet. Will borrow them after Easter and try it at home. But first impression was they sounded big, imaging was superb. KH310 and Genelec 8341 was in the same room. The image 2 did perform very well vs those was our impression.

Subjective evaluations at a dealer have very limited value. The room acoustics make a large difference. Also, subjective evaluations of monitors are generally pretty questionable. It is the measurements that count. That is what the Audio Science Review forum is all about.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

Hi all, new here! Based on what I can see of the forum, I think I came to the right place

I recently got the Adam A7V's. I am very happy with them, but (as I could have known beforehand since it's a two-way 7 inch monitor) the low end is just not enough for me. The drop after 50Hz is so steep that I am not able to make mix decisions below that. I want to upgrade my system to something that is able to give me 10Hz more down there. The problem is that my studio is relatively small - it's 3,3 meter long and 2,7 meter wide (11 x 9 ft). My studio is well treated, also with GIK bass traps. I have looked into a lot of options but I keep going back and forth. I am a music producer and mix most of my own productions. All kinds of music, mostly nu-funk, disco, house and hiphop.

Since my studio is relatively small, I am somewhat bound to a listening distance of around 1,2 meter (4 ft). I could stretch that a little, but not a lot. Most three-way monitors are marketed as midfields, and probably need more distance than that to reach their potential. They can also be quite wide, and may cause horizontal issues in a small room. On the other hand, my room is so small that a sub would get me into all kinds of acoustical problems. Getting a bit more low end is not worth getting into an acoustical mess of course.

I seem to like the character of the ribbon-tweeter monitors I have listened to (the HEDD's, Adam's and Eve's - initially chose the A7V over the HEDD Type 07 mk2 because of the smoother high end imo). I also prefer bass ports to be on the front to be able to place my monitors against the front wall. So at the moment I am looking at the Adam A77H and A8H, as well as the HEDD Type 20 mk2. What would the minimum listening distance be for those? The Barefoot Footprint 02 also looks interesting because of its extended low end and small size. I could also just get the Adam Sub 8 and get it over with. Or a larger two-way. Or just accept the fact that I will have to judge the low end with my headphones...

To conclude my long rant: what would you guys recommend me to do in my situation? Do any of you have experience with the monitors I mention in small studios? Or am I missing a great monitor that I should look into?

Any thoughts are very much appreciated. Thank you!

You need good headphones. They go well below 40hz. Audio Technica M50X, for example put out sufficient bass. You can't really get speaker response below 40 without spending $200 on a subwoofer. You can, however with any decent headphones with a relatively flat response for mixing.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

Subjective evaluations at a dealer have very limited value. The room acoustics make a large difference. Also, subjective evaluations of monitors are generally pretty questionable. It is the measurements that count. That is what the Audio Science Review forum is all about.

Yup. Is your room covered in carpet with acoustic ceiling tile? Then it won't sound the same as a dealer's wall to wall rug going up to the ceiling. It would sound very different than normal sheetrock, glass or wood. Ironically all carpeting will make speakers sound a bit boring from lack of reflection. The brights will be muted.

 

[teashea]

Headphones are good as a check on a mix but they are no substituted for a good pair of monitors. Moreover, it you are going to use headphones at all for miixing, the headphones should be good quality. Audio Technica M50X headhones are adequate for use by an artist who is recording a track but they are very poor quality for mixing. Yes, they provide bass ------ too much and provide a false sense of the bass content of the mix. Get a good pair like the Neumann NDH 30's.

 

[teashea]

That is true. Just having some ceiling tile and carpeting does not make a well treated room. It is vastly more complicated than that.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

That is true. Just having some ceiling tile and carpeting does not make a well treated room. It is vastly more complicated than that.

I have KRK Rokit 5 4G but my situation doesn't always work for pumping up the volume. Not to mention almost no reference speaker even goes below 40hz. Good headphones almost all do.

 

[teashea]

I have KRK Rokit 5 4G but my situation doesn't always work for pumping up the volume. Not to mention almost no reference speaker even goes below 40hz. Good headphones almost all do.

There is very little music content below 40 Hz. Fewer than 1 percent of all songs now released on the digital music services have content below 40 Hz. Do you know that th lowest frequency of a bass guitar is 40 Hz. What do you listen to with frequencies below 40 Hz? Most music producers of song that are actually listened to cut off frequencies below 40 or 50 Hz.

 

[Deleted member 60987]

There is very little music content below 40 Hz. Fewer than 1 percent of all songs now released on the digital music services have content below 40 Hz. Do you know that th lowest frequency of a bass guitar is 40 Hz. What do you listen to with frequencies below 40 Hz? Most music producers of song that are actually listened to cut off frequencies below 40 or 50 Hz.

20hz-20,000hz is a general audio standard based mainly on human hearing. Can you hear much below 40? I am aware of what 40 is. An open E string on the bass. The lowest note on a grand piano is 27hz. So, yes you can hear it.