Best Speaker Upgrade Based On Room?

[Brennan Huff]

TLDR: I am looking to see what speaker measurements I should be focusing on given the inherent issues with my room. Room diagram and explanation below.


Background:

Long time listener, first time caller... I have been reading this forum since 2019ish, but since its so technical in nature I have never felt I could add much to the discussion. However that has not hampered my enjoyment of reading the reviews, discussion and debates. Like many I am sure, it was the DAC testing the drove me here initially.

I am looking to upgrade my speakers. About 3 months ago I moved from Paradigm Studio 60 v.3's to B&W 804 D2's. I was aware of the technical issues with the B&W's, but they were a good price and I am still very nostalgic over going to audio stores in my college days and getting the salespeople to let me demo the old Nautilus 801/802's... so I had to scratch that itch.

Well - the BBC dip plus the big +7db boost at 10k do make the speakers overly bright and piercing, even after EQ'ing them. I am going to sell them.

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Speakers:

So I am in the market for new speakers - basically anything from ~3k to ~6k is in play. All the usual players suggested here are on the list, obviously: Ascend ELX Towers, Philharmonic BMR's, Mofi 888's... but also cheaper things like Super Lintons or other bookshelves. Which leads me to the real question.

Given the issues with my room (since its also a living room) - are there certain dynamics I should weight over others when searching out speakers to demo?

Most of the speakers everyone loves around here are not really easy to demo, so it will take me some time to find them and listen, so I don't imagine I am buying something next week.

My goal is to go into these listening sessions armed with some knowledge around what will 'play best' (figuratively, not literally) in my room, and then take that knowledge into these demos.

I spend a lot of time reading the tests here, and on Spinorama and reading Erin's reviews... but I feel like I am missing a big part of the equation, which is what I should be valuing the most based on the inherent issues with my listening area.

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Room in question:

There are really no other ways to set up this room.

Notes:
- The house is on a slab, so its tile over cement floors
- The back wall and long side wall with the window are brick (sheet rock over brick)
- There are no sound-specific room treatments, but there is a big rug and drapes over the windows, as well as canvas paintings, etc
- The ceiling is 8 ft high
- The openings in the above drawing are open to the kitchen (open floor plan)
- Currently I have not utilized REW or another software, but I plan on doing so eventually
- There are no room treatments. I am willing to add some, within reason

The speakers are currently:
- 24" from back wall (from back of speaker)
- 32" from side wall (to middle of the speaker)
- 93" apart (center to center)
- 110" from listening position

Currently the listening position is not setup as an equilateral triangle. I can move the speakers further apart, but it will result in the right speaker being tucked fairly close to the right wall. I can't move them out too much further, maybe 3-4" tops. I can also move the couch so my seating position is ~105" rather than 110", but thats about as good as it will get.

Currently I do not have a sub, but I am open to getting a sub if that is the best move.

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Thanks for reading my long thread.

Please let me know if I have left our any relevant information. Excited to read your replies and see what I can learn.


Also mods: I figured since ultimately I want speaker suggestions, this thread best belonged here, but if it best belongs in a different sub-forum, my apologies.

 

[Purité Audio]

The finest measuring loudspeakers will sound the most transparent in whichever room, thats where I would start, with ‘measurement led’ designs.
Keith

 

[Willem]

I would start with measuring now, rather than eventually. It is a decent size room, and the openings to the kitchen area help with low bass reproduction. Total combined volume is probably quite significant, so two subwoofers will help a lot (you need at least two). Any room benefits from dsp room equalization (do you have something for that?). And yes, sweeter speakers will make a difference. Do you have enough amplifier power? If not, consider active speakers like Genelec or Neumann.

 

[LTig]

I would try first to play a little more with EQ and toe-in to tame the piercing highs. Have you tried a toe-in of more than 30 degree? It might help to reduce the reflections of the highs at the close side wall.

And of course, getting a Umik-1 and free REW to measure the results. It helps a lot if one knows the exact frequency of peaks to get EQ right.

 

[Waxx]

I would use more narrow directive (max60°) speakers for this room, but for the rest it's quiet standard.

 

[Mart68]

I spend a lot of time reading the tests here, and on Spinorama and reading Erin's reviews... but I feel like I am missing a big part of the equation, which is what I should be valuing the most based on the inherent issues with my listening area.

You broke the primary rule by getting the B&W - which is: get a speaker with smooth on axis response. That's the most important criteria regardless of the room. Your room is pretty good, since it is large you'll have less low frequency issues.

See if you can home demo at least some of the speakers on your shortlist, although they are all have fairly accurate on axis response the secondary factors then come into play. Most likely they will all sound essentially 'good' in your room but they'll all have a differing presentation.

 

[Brennan Huff]

I would start with measuring now, rather than eventually. It is a decent size room, and the openings to the kitchen area help with low bass reproduction. Total combined volume is probably quite significant, so two subwoofers will help a lot (you need at least two). Any room benefits from dsp room equalization (do you have something for that?). And yes, sweeter speakers will make a difference. Do you have enough amplifier power? If not, consider active speakers like Genelec or Neumann.

I do not have DSP, I currently have separates that do not have that technology. I EQ through Roon.

How do you wire 2 subwoofers in a room that is used for many things, and cant have wires going everywhere, etc?

I would try first to play a little more with EQ and toe-in to tame the piercing highs. Have you tried a toe-in of more than 30 degree? It might help to reduce the reflections of the highs at the close side wall.

And of course, getting a Umik-1 and free REW to measure the results. It helps a lot if one knows the exact frequency of peaks to get EQ right.

I have tried tons of different speaker positions with these... still mess with it every few days. Are we talking Erin's toe in (zero is at the listener) or the opposite?

You broke the primary rule by getting the B&W - which is: get a speaker with smooth on axis response. That's the most important criteria regardless of the room. Your room is pretty good, since it is large you'll have less low frequency issues.

See if you can home demo at least some of the speakers on your shortlist, although they are all have fairly accurate on axis response the secondary factors then come into play. Most likely they will all sound essentially 'good' in your room but they'll all have a differing presentation.

As stated above its an itch I had to scratch, haha. I don't regret it!

The finest measuring loudspeakers will sound the most transparent in whichever room, thats where I would start, with ‘measurement led’ designs.
Keith

That's what I am looking at!

I would use more narrow directive (max60°) speakers for this room, but for the rest it's quiet standard.

This is one of the main things I was wondering, actually... and the type of information I was hoping would come from this thread.

Can you/anyone expound? As a result of the left side not getting the same reflections as the right, should I actually look for a narrower horizontal dispersion?

 

[Purité Audio]

Try and hear some really wide dispersion speakers and the more usual 60° decide which you prefer , a more tightly focused image/ sound or more expansive but perhaps slightly more diffused.
Keith

 

[Waxx]

Narrow dispertion will make the room less influential in sound, and as you have no damping and an irregular room, direct sound is what you need, not room sound. Best would be cardioid untill at least the schroeder frequency of your room, and multiple subs with room correction, but that will cost a lot. Even diy will cost a lot to build. A D&D 8C would probally work well there, but is 4K over budget, without room correction (so adding that is an extra cost)

 

[LTig]

I have tried tons of different speaker positions with these... still mess with it every few days. Are we talking Erin's toe in (zero is at the listener) or the opposite?

I don't know about Erin's toe-in, but assume that in his case zero means 30 degree in my notation. So you should try 15 degree more to the inside which is 45 degree in my notation. From the listening position you should clearly see the left side of the left speaker and the right side of the right speaker.

 

[Brennan Huff]

Narrow dispertion will make the room less influential in sound, and as you have no damping and an irregular room, direct sound is what you need, not room sound. Best would be cardioid untill at least the schroeder frequency of your room, and multiple subs with room correction, but that will cost a lot. Even diy will cost a lot to build. A D&D 8C would probally work well there, but is 4K over budget, without room correction (so adding that is an extra cost)

If you dont mind me asking... the horizontal contour plots of the 8C look pretty wide... what am I missing?

 

[Brennan Huff]

I don't know about Erin's toe-in, but assume that in his case zero means 30 degree in my notation. So you should try 15 degree more to the inside which is 45 degree in my notation. From the listening position you should clearly see the left side of the left speaker and the right side of the right speaker.

When I toe them in almost directly at me (which in this case 45 degrees would be), I find them to be *very* bright.

 

[tineared]

Cover the tile floor with a big rug or carpeting. The reflections from the tile is no doubt contributing to your shrill highs.

 

[MarkS]

This is what I would do (assuming you do not need to listen at rock-concert levels):

1) Get a pair of Ascilab C6B for $1357 when they become available. State-of-the-art measurements above 100Hz, relatively narrow (and even) dispersion. I thought I liked wide dispersion speakers until I got these. Endgame for me. (Or: go get your Paradigm Studio 60 V3 speakers back! Those were great!)

2) Get a decent subwoofer like the RSL Speedwoofer 10S for $500 or the SVS SB1000 Pro for $600 (the latter if it's going against the rear wall, no rear port).

3) Get some electronics that can handle a sub crossover and has automated room correction. I believe various Wiim products do this. I have the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, which is fantastic but pricey ($2400).

4) Get REW and a Umik1 to make sure the sub integration is being done well and that the automated room correction has not gone off the rails.

5) Ignore everyone here who tells you that you need at least 37 18" subwoofers and cardioid speakers and and AND ...

6) Ignore everyone at any other audio forum, period.

7) Use the money saved to take a nice vacation.

8) When you get back, enjoy the music!

 

[LTig]

When I toe them in almost directly at me (which in this case 45 degrees would be), I find them to be *very* bright.

Yes, of course, since this is on axis. Try 60 degree.

 

[Brennan Huff]

Cover the tile floor with a big rug or carpeting. The reflections from the tile is no doubt contributing to your shrill highs.

I do have a fairly big run in the room, at least in front and under my listening position.

This is what I would do (assuming you do not need to listen at rock-concert levels):

1) Get a pair of Ascilab C6B for $1357 when they become available. State-of-the-art measurements above 100Hz, relatively narrow (and even) dispersion. I thought I liked wide dispersion speakers until I got these. Endgame for me. (Or: go get your Paradigm Studio 60 V3 speakers back! Those were great!)

2) Get a decent subwoofer like the RSL Speedwoofer 10S for $500 or the SVS SB1000 Pro for $600 (the latter if it's going against the rear wall, no rear port).

3) Get some electronics that can handle a sub crossover and has automated room correction. I believe various Wiim products do this. I have the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, which is fantastic but pricey ($2400).

4) Get REW and a Umik1 to make sure the sub integration is being done well and that the automated room correction has not gone off the rails.

5) Ignore everyone here who tells you that you need at least 37 18" subwoofers and cardioid speakers and and AND ...

6) Ignore everyone at any other audio forum, period.

7) Use the money saved to take a nice vacation.

8) When you get back, enjoy the music!

- How would you define rock concert levels, haha?
- I actually still have the Studio 60 v3's, I havent sold them yet. I might swap them back. Admittedly I started this thread because I want something that is a 'step up', however.
- Is the built in subwoofer control in the SVS's good enough, or should I really get something like your Lyngdorf?

Yes, of course, since this is on axis. Try 60 degree.

Oh, so you are saying have them cross over in front of me. Interesting. I will try this.

Sorry for my confusion.

 

[LTig]

Oh, so you are saying have them cross over in front of me. Interesting. I will try this.

Exactly. In the near field it widens the sweet spot, but in your case it reduces the early reflections of the highs which may help - it's just a guess but costs nothing to try.

 

[Duke]

@Brennan Huff, for about two decades I've been designing speakers intended to be used as @LTig is describing, with the axes criss-crossing in front of the listening area. Ime results vary with speakers not designed for such use, as ime it calls for an unusually well-behaved and narrower-than-normal radiation pattern.

If it doesn't work well with your B&W's don't give up entirely on the concept, as imo it's a good way to deal with the side-wall asymmetry in your room, as well as give you an unusually wide sweet spot area.

 

[MarkS]

- How would you define rock concert levels, haha?

Someone sitting next to you needs to shout into your ear to be heard above the music.

- I actually still have the Studio 60 v3's, I havent sold them yet. I might swap them back. Admittedly I started this thread because I want something that is a 'step up', however.

Room correction is the first step up that I would recommend. It helps tame bass modes, which plague any speaker in any room, no matter how good the speaker is. And the 60 V3s have very good measurements.

But for new speakers that don't (necessarily) need a sub, consider the MoFi towers (888 and V10), KEF R series (R7, R11), and Revel Performa4 and Be series.

- Is the built in subwoofer control in the SVS's good enough, or should I really get something like your Lyngdorf?

If you add a sub, it's best to have a two-sided crossover that takes the deep bass from the main speakers, the controls in subs like the SVS usually do not have this capability.

 

[Paul7777x]

Personally, I’d sell all you have and try these…

6c Product Page

Discover how your music can sound, when your loudspeakers work together with the acoustics of your room.

dutchdutch.com

Assuming the sale of everything else can cover the difference?