Best sounding closed-back headphone $500-$1,000 for a non-audiophile?

[nyxnyxnyx]

have anyone in this thread heard the Denon D9200?
It's been heavily discussed as one of the best closed-back headphones and I'm really curious about it. Granted, the impressions mostly come from people in forums like head-fi, steve hoffman, etc...

 

[DRNNOO]

I think it depends on what measurements we are discussing. FR is easily the most discussed and influential. Measurements are objective... words like "Detail retrieval" "Note weight" are not, thus, have no real meaning in science, thus, theres no measurements for those aspects.

FR and THD are probably the most important aspects but since headphones are so intimate with the ear, Timbre is likely a huge factor. If one could ever hear the material of the diaphragm or spectral decay character, it would definitely happen with headphones

Sound stage within a headphone is a strange concept... anything apart from the original is an augmented reproduction. M/S processing and crossfeed would manipulate this. In loudspeakers, directivity and time alignment would affect this in combination with room performance . Headphones need no time alignment and there is no directivity to think about since there is no room influence.

For closed back headphones... if using EQ to flatten the FR, one could use a multitude of quality headphones to achieve a high level accuracy.

Since there is only one representation of correct. As you reach the top of performance the products will sound more similar than not...

The trick is discern whether you are interested in true accuracy or preference.

 

[solderdude]

Timbre ...

The usage of the word 'timbre' is not really applicable to speakers/headphones/electronics.
Timbre is more related to instruments/voices.

Say all different instruments/voices all produce a 440Hz 'note' then they are easily discernible because of the harmonic content and decay properties.
This is 'timbre'. Harmonic profile and decay profile of all those harmonics + fundamental over time.

When a frequency response is wonky the 'timbre' of each instrument changes but decay does not.
O.K.... unless the headphone resonates at specific frequencies for much longer than a specific instrument but this is unlikely as in nature everything likes to vibrate and drivers can be damped and are usually much better damped than any instrument.

So a wonky FR can affect the timbre of different instruments in a different way but that headphone does not have a 'timbre'.
It has a specific coloration which affects the 'tone' of each instrument in a specific way.

Such coloration can be corrected for the most part in which case the timbre of all instruments and voices is more 'correct' for that recording.
Assuming the timbre of instruments was not deliberately changed in the recording studio which it almost always is.

The trick is discern whether you are interested in true accuracy or preference.

Yep, this is an important aspect.
For recording side I would think accuracy is mandatory.

For the reproduction side accuracy should give the best results but may not be what one prefers.
For headphones preference, in the end, matters the most. Some want specific coloration, others want the least. This is what one needs to find out. On top of all that it is also listening level dependent, seal dependent and even comfort dependent.

 

[DRNNOO]

Timbre ...

The usage of the word 'timbre' is not really applicable to speakers/headphones/electronics.
Timbre is more related to instruments/voices.

That is absolutely untrue actually lol. Different diaphragm material, and enclosures, effect the Timbre, as well, electronics can effect this as well.

"Timbre refers to the unique quality of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds with the same pitch and volume. It is also sometimes called tone color or simply "color" and is influenced by various factors, such as the harmonics, overtones, and other aspects of the sound's waveform. Timbre is what makes it possible to distinguish between different musical instruments or the sound of one person's voice from another."

This is 'timbre'. Harmonic profile and decay profile of all those harmonics + fundamental over time.

Yep, what do you think THD is lol....what do you think that the Cumulative Spectral Decay is...Even Group Delay plays a role.

 

[Dazerdoreal]

have anyone in this thread heard the Denon D9200?
It's been heavily discussed as one of the best closed-back headphones and I'm really curious about it. Granted, the impressions mostly come from people in forums like head-fi, steve hoffman, etc...

A good friend of mine owns the 9200 and I listened to it for a night. I enjoyed it a lot. The sound signature mostly worked out for me. Burials "Untrue" blew my mind as the sound of the headphone played to its strenghts.

That said, it is a fact that it is definetely not a harman-tuned phone. It might not work for every genre. And the price is still way too high for me (it is the most expensive headphone I listened to by far).

Edit: Oh, and the comfort was good and it was very easy to drive.

 

[solderdude]

"Timbre refers to the unique quality of a sound that distinguishes it from other sounds with the same pitch and volume. It is also sometimes called tone color or simply "color" and is influenced by various factors, such as the harmonics, overtones, and other aspects of the sound's waveform. Timbre is what makes it possible to distinguish between different musical instruments or the sound of one person's voice from another."

That is exactly what I said.

You are contributing properties of instruments to a driver that just has to follow an applied voltage.
Of course materials of drivers is a part of the tonal signature of a headphone but they do not have a timbre but wonky FR can change the timbre of instruments.

I suppose you never listened to a single impulse. If headphones had 'timbre' they would all make this pulse sound distinctly different.
Of course there are slight differences between various headphones if the pulses are applied but you could not tell headphones apart based on that pulse.

Now strike instruments with the same pulse and you can clearly hear differences between various string and percussive instruments. That is timbre.

When one properly (there is the catch right there) a few headphones to closely the same tonal balance the differences between headphones becomes very small.
Yes, there still will be some differences for very obvious reasons but certainly at 'normal' listening levels THD is not a very contributing factor and resonances might still very slightly color the overall sound.

Yep, what do you think THD is lol....what do you think that the Cumulative Spectral Decay is...Even Group Delay plays a role.

Have you seen the harmonics of a note played on instruments. Is that of a headphone anywhere near that of a headphone ?
I know what CSD is. Do you know how short 1ms of delay is at a resonance frequency and what attenuation occurs in that short time frame ?
What decay do you reckon an instrument has ?
How will group delay play a role with headphones ?

 

[DRNNOO]

That is exactly what I said.

You are contributing properties of instruments to a driver that just has to follow an applied voltage.
Of course materials of drivers is a part of the tonal signature of a headphone but they do not have a timbre but wonky FR can change the timbre of instruments.

I suppose you never listened to a single impulse. If headphones had 'timbre' they would all make this pulse sound distinctly different.
Of course there are slight differences between various headphones if the pulses are applied but you could not tell headphones apart based on that pulse.

Now strike instruments with the same pulse and you can clearly hear differences between various string and percussive instruments. That is timbre.

When one properly (there is the catch right there) a few headphones to closely the same tonal balance the differences between headphones becomes very small.
Yes, there still will be some differences for very obvious reasons but certainly at 'normal' listening levels THD is not a very contributing factor and resonances might still very slightly color the overall sound.



Have you seen the harmonics of a note played on instruments. Is that of a headphone anywhere near that of a headphone ?
I know what CSD is. Do you know how short 1ms of delay is at a resonance frequency and what attenuation occurs in that short time frame ?
What decay do you reckon an instrument has ?
How will group delay play a role with headphones ?

Yet you applied your thought to all headphones, loudspeakers, and electronics. You are implying that all of these reproduce a perfect impulse and it just isnt true...

The difference in impulse is in fact the timbre of these devices. Whether it is enough for you to perceive, is a separate aspect. There are plenty of tube amp that definitely are distinguishable from a solid state amp. There are different diaphragm materials that are distinguishable from others, titanium vs beryllium vs paper for example.

The less signature there is, the more neutral the recreation, the less timbre, but to say there is no timbre is false!


Now, focusing on headphones, which in my experience seem to be very accurate, are not without faults. There are modes that exist, whether the diaphragm or cavity space between the ears and if they are large enough, the intimate proximity will not hide this.

In short, just because these devices are less colorfully variant than a flute vs a trumpet playing the same C#, does not take away from the fact that these we are discussing, can and do leave sonic signatures that create perceivable differences between them.

If this is obviously true with tweeters (it is) then a headphone placed not even 1" away from the ear could be susceptible as well.

Yes, there still will be some differences for very obvious reasons but certainly at 'normal' listening levels THD is not a very contributing factor and resonances might still very slightly color the overall sound.

This is contradictory to your point... you admit that there is slight coloration... I guess you do agree...also true, those resonances are apart of THD.

 

[solderdude]

Yet you applied your thought to all headphones, loudspeakers, and electronics. You are implying that all of these reproduce a perfect impulse and it just isnt true...

Didn't imply that at all. I also did not mention the word 'perfect' nor loudspeakers nor electronics.

The difference in impulse is in fact the timbre of these devices. Whether it is enough for you to perceive, is a separate aspect.

If it can't be perceived how is it timbre (see definition of timbre) ?

There are plenty of tube amp that definitely are distinguishable from a solid state amp.

Yes and there are very obvious and measurable reasons for that. Added harmonics is just a small part of it and often not even the main reason.

This is contradictory to your point... you admit that there is slight coloration... I guess you do agree...also true, those resonances are apart of THD.

No it isn't contradictory at all. There will always be colorations (FR anomalies not 'timbre' aspects) in headphones as it is impossible to perfectly correct the FR and impulse response of headphones and also not speakers.
This isn't 'timbre' it is FR deviations.
It would be timbre if there would be an audible amount of added harmonics that are distinctive enough to be unmistakably from a certain transducer and not FR related.

 

[DRNNOO]

Didn't imply that at all. I also did not mention the word 'perfect' nor loudspeakers nor electronics.

To have no Timbre, as in, the Timbre of the recreation device, implies perfect replication of the signal, when it comes to re-production, ie speakers, amplifiers, etc

If it can't be perceived how is it timbre (see definition of timbre) ?

If I cannot perceive THD does it just not exist? Thats one way to look at it. You could say if you can't hear it, who cares. Another; if a listener does not perceive the difference between an aluminum and a brass shell snare, tuned to the same note, does the timbre not change or are they just not able to perceive it? Perception is a psychological event and ones ability to discern Timbre, is not required

Yes and there are very obvious and measurable reasons for that. Added harmonics is just a small part of it and often not even the main reason.

Added Harmonics, is a change in Timbre!

No it isn't contradictory at all. There will always be colorations (FR anomalies not 'timbre' aspects) in headphones as it is impossible to perfectly correct the FR and impulse response of headphones and also not speakers.
This isn't 'timbre' it is FR deviations.
It would be timbre if there would be an audible amount of added harmonics that are distinctive enough to be unmistakably from a certain transducer and not FR related.

Once again you contradict yourself by not using the word Timbre to its full extent!

Heres Merriams definition,

timbre​

: the quality given to a sound by its overtones: such as
: the resonance by which the ear recognizes and identifies a voiced speech sound
: the quality of tone distinctive of a particular singing voice or musical instrument

What is tone? According to the acoustic glossary

Tone a sound or noise recognisable by it's regularity. A simple or pure tone has one frequency. Complex tones have two or more simple tones, the lowest tone frequency is called the fundamental, the others are overtones.

In Merriam, for Tone, you will see "general character, quality, or trend" as one definition but in general we know what A tone wheel did on the stereo. How do we adjust tone on our reproduction systems? With an equalizer! What does an equalizer augment? The Frequency Response.....


So yes FR is also apart of Timbre. Your ability to perceive Timbre is not required for it to be there but as you already said

colorations ..... in headphones .... is impossible to perfectly correct the FR and impulse response of headphones and also not speakers.

All devices that do not recreate the signal perfectly, have their own Timbre, which is just another word for coloration....Whether it is enough coloration to be perceived, that devil is in the details. Timbre is just another word for Sonic Footprint, thus a change in any aspect, including Frequency response, is in affect, impartation of......Timbre.

You may or may not agree, and we can agree to disagree. It sounds like to me you have a more personal definition of Timbre vs a technical one, is all. For me, Timbre will be;

1. Tone color
2. Quality of sound
3. Character of sound
4. Texture of sound
5. Sound signature
6. Sound quality
7. Acoustic quality
8. Sonic fingerprint
9. Sound property
10. Musical color

 

[ZolaIII]

@DRNNOO why on earth would you want to F* someone who is trying to help you and teach you? This is becoming chronically. And if it's about details and have a happy ending then it's not that bad or if you learn something new from it.
His every review begins with this:

There is no perfect only some closer to what it should be.

 

[DRNNOO]

Lol! is he helping me or am I helping him.... are you even reading the responses? I am not incorrect....at all. As a sound engineer, I am used to seeing these charts for years now... That chart is on my side lol! You are proving my point that FR is apart of Timbre, not that that aspect is even debatable.

Thanks for showing us in what way adjusting frequency response affects Timbre.....

 

[ZolaIII]

@DRNNOO no buddy I lost you when you claimed how AirPod's Pro Max have best frequency response from closed back's.

Apple AirPods Max Review (Noise Cancelling Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apple AirPods Max wireless Bluetooth noise cancelling headphone. It is on kind loan from a member. The retail cost is US $549 but I see it on Amazon for $479 including Prime shipping. I am used to shocking good looks in Apple products but this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You chose wrong spot to debate about semantics.
Edit: So how does that 9 dB deep at 4 KHz fit in your perspective of timbre - over tones or harmonics if you wish?
Feal free to call your self that when you conduct more proper work then he did.

solderdude

I am one of the 3 admins (Frans) with the nickname ‘Solderdude’. This nickname was given to me by a (late) good old friend called Herb. I design/build/test/repair/service opto-electroni…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

 

[Spocko]

Beyerdynamic DT 1770 Pro or the Massdrop 177X GO (which is what I have) are the best bang for the buck in terms of build quality, sound and no superfluous frills. I've been using this for both leisure and pro use (video editing) for hours on end with no discomfort. Definitely under appreciated by the popular press. There are a lot of great open backed options for under $1000 but few great closed back headphones; so after trying out so many different types at various price points between $500 and $1500, I ended up going back to these. Similarly priced Audio Technica ATH-WP900 is not accurate enough for my needs (too much midbass, not enough clarity above 3K Hz) but comfortable and great for badly recorded music. However, I needed more transparency and the DT1770Pro is designed for accuracy.

Currently on sale at Massdrop for $350

 

[Spocko]

Thanks everybody for the comments!

I decided to try the Focal Elegia first. I haven't experienced other good headphones so I don't have much to compare to. It seems that buying the dekoni sheepskin pads is a must for the Elegia. Mostly everybody seems to recommend them. Although I read a few comments where they prefer the original pads. For what I understand, they improve the sound quality, bass, etc.

I haven't learned how to read the graphs yet, so I still don't understand them.

Truth is I wanted to get a pair of very good headphones without having to learn all technicalities, but I had to read tons of reviews and comments to compare

Would an DAC/amp improve the sound or just allow more volume on the Elegia? What am I loosing without it?

Thanks again!

if the DAC/amp changes the sound or frequency curve noticeably, then it's adding some sort of EQ or filter which is not a good thing unless you have the option to disable it.

 

[DRNNOO]

no buddy I lost you when you claimed how AirPod's Pro Max have best frequency response from closed back's.

Thanks for being honest, especially the apart about not even reading my responses before you responded. Shows your Timbre..... Saying that Airpod Max's have "the best FR" might be confusing to you. Maybe I would been more correct (to you) by saying the Apple Airpod Max have one of the best FR for the money. "The stunning low Distortion" is in accordance with my statement about Bass heavy voicing and drivers being a show of prowess. The "stunningly low distortion" solidifies my suspicions to be true. The reason why I praise the FR of the Apple headphone is the linearity of the FR. There are no strong peaks or nulls in comparison to competing headphones.

This deviation from what one might call a choice voicing, is easily fixed. As the reviewer you posted says, "Simple 2 filter"

So how does that 9 dB deep at 4 KHz fit in your perspective of timbre - over tones or harmonics if you wish?

You have to look at the long game. See the above to know why =)

Feal free to call your self that when you conduct more proper work then he did.

I used the dictionary to prove him wrong about Timbre. lol Its not a subjective debate....

 

[DRNNOO]

if the DAC/amp changes the sound or frequency curve noticeably, then it's adding some sort of EQ or filter which is not a good thing.

Its also not always a bad thing, If it can be fixed..... how much extra money are you willing to pay to avoid adding a couple of peak filters? How much might the absense of 2 peak filters be worth to you? a couple of thousand dollars for what is essentially a different voicing, is craziness, yet we see this happen all the time. Imagine spending thousands of dollars to improve voicing when your eq could of provided that same results the whole time. Life is crazy

 

[solderdude]

To have no Timbre, as in, the Timbre of the recreation device, implies perfect replication of the signal, when it comes to re-production, ie speakers, amplifiers, etc

Timbre is not the same as coloration. The latter is FR, timbre is spectral (overtones + fundamental).
Changing the FR will change the timbre of all recorded instruments. That does not mean the gear has a timbre. For that to happen there would have to be a lot of overtones in a specific spectrum to be there.

If I cannot perceive THD does it just not exist?

When it is masked or below audible tresholds it is arguably there, just not audible.

if a listener does not perceive the difference between an aluminum and a brass shell snare, tuned to the same note, does the timbre not change or are they just not able to perceive it?

The listener is not trained to recognize the difference in timbre (spectrum and decay over time)

Added Harmonics, is a change in Timbre!

So when I add 2nd harmonic at -50dB and 3rd at -70dB for all frequencies involved in a recording you say that it is a change in timbre ?
It has everything to do with amplitude.
Besides, an instrument has fundamental and harmonics.
HD has harmonics and IM products which also is quite different despite both having harmonics. So not the same.

So yes FR is also apart of Timbre.

They mean different things but changing the FR can alter the timbre of recorded instruments but may do so in different ways.

That does not mean amplifiers, DACs have a timbre (or tone).
Speakers and headphones can have coloration and distortion. This is not the same as timbre.

All devices that do not recreate the signal perfectly, have their own Timbre,

Nope, they have distortion (linear and non-linear) which is not the same as timbre.

1. Tone color
2. Quality of sound
3. Character of sound
4. Texture of sound
5. Sound signature
6. Sound quality
7. Acoustic quality
8. Sonic fingerprint
9. Sound property
10. Musical color

To me 6:sound quality (nor 2:quality of sound)

1: Tone color = timbre
2: (nor 6 which is the same) is not part of timbre but = fidelity
3: character of sound = timbre
4: texture of sound = timbre
5: sound signature = coloration
7: acoustic quality ... you will have to explain this. The acoustics of a room ?, recording quality ?, instrument quality ?
8: Sonic fingerprint = spectrum analysis that describes multiple aspects of whatever is 'fingerprinted'. Could be an entire recording
9: sound property: can mean a lot of things, it has lots of properties.
10: musical color = frequency response, when a single instrument can also be timbre or overall sound signature of a recording (due to monitors or hearing being incorrect, circle of confusion)

I understand to you view those aspects are all 'timbre'. The fact that these all are 'timbre' to you is another matter entirely.

I used the dictionary to prove him wrong about Timbre

The dictionary and wiki actually confirmed what I said.

To you tonal balance and frequency response = timbre.
They are not the same. If they were a frequency response would be named 'timbre' and it is not. Nor is tonal balance timbre. Both tonal balance and frequency response can change the timbre of recorded instruments. They do not add a timbre.

 

[isostasy]

@DRNNOO praising a transducer purely because of the perceived 'linearity' of its frequency response, by which I think you literally mean it looks kinda like a straight line, is absurd. The only reason it looks 'linear', to use your parlance, is because it's actually deficient across the entire mid-range. If you compensated to the harman target it wouldn't look 'linear' anymore, but would instead show a deep V-shaped dip in the mid-range. All you're really demonstrating is a misunderstanding of what an uncompensated measurement of a headphone looks like.

While I'm at it, you haven't 'used the dictionary to prove him wrong', and if you want to play a game of who-can-find-a-dictionary-defintion-that-matches-their-viewpoint:

'Linear ... 3. Mathematics: able to be represented by a straight line on a graph'. (OED)

The frequency response you shared is not a 'straight line'.

 

[ZolaIII]

@DRNNOO sure thing and what you intend to do with that horrific treble response? You do know you can't EQ it and it's even worse whit better HATS that do that part better. Wouldn't that brake most of instruments overtones in uper range?

You actually made me laugh how they are a bang for the buck's. If something is broken fundamentally but can be fixed to some extent with EQ doesn't mean it's good in any way.
The Denon's I mentioned look like this regarding FR:

You just get the pads towards your preferences and put them on and they can be found for less money of course.
Have a nice time I don't want to participate in pointless and empty discussions.

 

[DRNNOO]

he only reason it looks 'linear', to use your parlance, is because it's actually deficient across the entire mid-range

it is linear because it is void of large peaks and nulls, it is not Perfectly linear, in the same way, something can be called smooth, yet it may not be perfectly smooth...that is all. The Tilt of the response is actually on point with Harman curve till about 1khz. Mid range starts at about 120hz so your "deficient across the entire mid-range" comment is.....incorrect

FR never have to be perfect, its more important how easy is it to fix it.

If you would be willing to pay 500 more dollars to not have to do the above fix, you are crazy, in my opinion.

Some would argue, that the Harman Curve is a preference, not exactly an absolute. I have no dog in that fight...

Someone please show me a headphone that has a better response from 5khz and up? I am not talking about voicing....which is what the Harman Curve is... I am talking about how smooth the trend line is.