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Best Room Response

I've got no sub, the KH-120 are playing alone.
I don't think that the small size of the speakers are to blame, because the problem is the same at moderate listening levels (60 dB SPL(A)), well within the power capacity of the speakers.
 
I've got no sub, the KH-120 are playing alone.
I don't think that the small size of the speakers are to blame, because the problem is the same at moderate listening levels (60 dB SPL(A)), well within the power capacity of the speakers.

Those are good speakers, but as with all small monitors , they don't really excell with bass. The fact that you had to lower the 30-80Hz range because of low bass quality confirms it. Getting a sub (or two) seems like the best solution IMHO.
 
Don't forget that before room correction, the frequency response was awful :

30_201706_avant.png


I can't get something clean starting from that !
But as you said in another thread, not being able to get a perfect result is not an excuse for not improving things.
 
Don't forget that before room correction, the frequency response was awful :

View attachment 61373

I can't get something clean starting from that !
But as you said in another thread, not being able to get a perfect result is not an excuse for not improving things.

The point is that you had to lower the bass from "ideal" target curve because although tonal balance was correct bass sounded bad, and that implies problem with bass reproduction and not with your correction.

Alternatively, you may try to lower the slope to something like this, but the fact that those speakers have limited bass capability still remains and that can only be solved with adding a sub.

30_201706_avant.png
 
Alternatively, and partly as a heuristic device, you can use the equalization software to introduce a sharp high pass filter at e.g. 40 Hz to reduce the burden for speaker and inbuilt amplifiers of reproducing the lowest frequencies. If this is indeed where the problem is, reducing the effort to reproduce the very lowest frequencies may improve the quality of the bass just above that. It is a tried and tested method.
If it works, you have cleaner bass. If you then miss the lowest bass, you know you will need a sub, or rather, two small ones.
 
Alternatively, and partly as a heuristic device, you can use the equalization software to introduce a sharp high pass filter at e.g. 40 Hz to reduce the burden for speaker and inbuilt amplifiers of reproducing the lowest frequencies.

That indeed may help to some extent, but I'd be carefull with implementation. For example, here is what a single brickwall HP filter at 32Hz (without any other phase corrections except passive XO compensation which introduces no pre-ringing) is doing to step response. As you can see a noticeable, and potentially audible, pre-ringing is introduced:


Capture.JPG
 
Well, as I said it is an old trick. My Quad pre amplifier had something like this at somewhat lower frequency to get rid of turntable rumble etc. Peter Walker was an advocate of band limiting to get better real life performance. If a stressed amplifier/speaker system is indeed the problem that will still be a problem with a subwoofer. It is easy enough to try.
 
Well, as I said it is an old trick. My Quad pre amplifier had something like this at somewhat lower frequency to get rid of turntable rumble etc. Peter Walker was an advocate of band limiting to get better real life performance. If a stressed amplifier/speaker system is indeed the problem that will still be a problem with a subwoofer. It is easy enough to try.

I probably didn't make it clear enough it is a speaker's step response I posted, not amp's.
 
Alternatively, and partly as a heuristic device, you can use the equalization software to introduce a sharp high pass filter at e.g. 40 Hz to reduce the burden for speaker and inbuilt amplifiers of reproducing the lowest frequencies. If this is indeed where the problem is, reducing the effort to reproduce the very lowest frequencies may improve the quality of the bass just above that. It is a tried and tested method.
If it works, you have cleaner bass. If you then miss the lowest bass, you know you will need a sub, or rather, two small ones.

Btw, it looks like the port is tuned to somewhere around 45 Hz so I'm not sure setting any kind of fliter at 40Hz would improve things with bass reproduction. Those are good speakers, but simply small..
 
The 40 Hz was only an arbitrary number without knowing much about the speaker. I have often had good results from easing the burden on small speakers in this way. It may work but maybe not. Trying will help to find out why bass quality disappoints.
 
Good question.
The global balance between the volume of low, medium and high frequencies sound better with your setting. But the bass quality sounds bad. It is disturbing to hear the bad quality of these frequencies all the time.
With my settings, there are less bass, but they sound cleaner.

.

Yes it's better to have a week curve in bass frequencies, if boomers cannot reproduice a big level.

I remember Quad loudspeaker : good bass sound but weak curve.
 
Its good confirmation to see that the sound power irregularity above 1,5 kHz I mentioned here shows up in your MMM and confirms why the KH120 sound too dark/polite outside of the nearfield (which is ok that, as they are nearfield monitors), see also https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/component/content/article?id=469

You know what ?
You made me try my JBL 305P again ! I've got a calibration file that I've made from Amir's spinorama to make them flat on-axis, and they have a much better directivity index than the KH-120.

The difficulty is always the same : to find a proper target curve in order to properly equalize the room modes, and, more important, the SBIR acoustic interferences on the front wall.
No standard target curve gives a satisfactory result. I tried 11 different curves without success. It's not even possible to use the treble tilt of the frequency response without eq as a guide, there is none ! The frequency response from the listening position is flat above 1500 Hz.
Human voices don't sound right. There is always something wrong in the 300-1000 Hz range. The problem comes from my front wall that is not a wall but a window. It sends strong interferences that are very sensitive to the listening position. I even get different curves according to the width that my MMM measurement spans !

Then I noticed something interesting : after speaker eq (not room eq), the treble part looks like the spinorama directivity index, but upside down. That's not surprising : I'm measuring the direct sound + sound power, and the treble frequency range is averaged out by the MMM method.
I told myself, what if the solution was the inverted directivity index ? What if that was the ideal target curve ? That's something I had never tried because the slope starts at 250 Hz (the speaker is omnidirectional below) and stops at 2000 Hz, from which, on the 305P, it becomes flat. I had never tried to set a tilted target up to 2000 Hz.
The result was not bad, among the best of my 11 previous trials, but the sound was still a bit "boxy", with too much volume around 300 / 400 Hz.
Then I told myself that if the inverted directivity index must be the reference, then I should attenuate it, because what I'm hearing is not the sound power frequency response (that becomes the inverse of the directivity index after the direct sound is equalized, you see ?), but a mix of the sound power and of the listening window curve (that is flat).
So I left the knee at 2000 Hz, but decreased the slope, keeping the stop at 250 Hz.
Bingo ! The voices were natural, the whole was balanced, and there was no more this kind of sweetness that can be guessed in the Neumann sound.
It sounds great ! I'm going to listen to it for a while now, and see if it passes the test of long-term listening.

But here is, for now, a new idea to investigate : for a given speaker, the target curve for room equalization, everywhere room modes and SBIR are masking the natural sound of the speaker, should be the sound power directivity index of that speaker, inverted and attenuated.

By the way, it would help if the directivity index curves were already inverted in the spinorama graphs. What we're interest in is the sound power vs direct sound, not the direct sound vs sound power.
 
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Then I told myself that if the inverted directivity index must be the reference, then I should attenuate it, because what I'm hearing is not the sound power frequency response (that becomes the inverse of the directivity index after the direct sound is equalized, you see ?), but a mix of the sound power and of the listening window curve (that is flat).
Thanks Pio for those interestings tests. When I do EQ in studios or living rooms, I also automatically calculate the target curve from the power response (given from estimated DI), listening distance and frequency dependant reverberation (decay) time at listening position. It generally gives good results but it must be carefully checked by listening because the calculated slope you get is very tricky : a small adjustment of the global tilt is clearly audible.
Another point : I only use an estimated global slope for the power response. Knowing the precise power response may be better but I don't know how you would precisely measure it at listening position, without including the direct field. I prefer to use MMM method which gives nicely combines direct field at higher frequencies and power response at lower frequencies.
 
Then I told myself that if the inverted directivity index must be the reference, then I should attenuate it, because what I'm hearing is not the sound power frequency response (that becomes the inverse of the directivity index after the direct sound is equalized, you see ?), but a mix of the sound power and of the listening window curve (that is flat).
So I left the knee at 2000 Hz, but decreased the slope, keeping the stop at 250 Hz.
Bingo ! The voices were natural, the whole was balanced, and there was no more this kind of sweetness that can be guessed in the Neumann sound.
It sounds great ! I'm going to listen to it for a while now, and see if it passes the test of long-term listening.

But here is, for now, a new idea to investigate : for a given speaker, the target curve for room equalization, everywhere room modes and SBIR are masking the natural sound of the speaker, should be the sound power directivity index of that speaker, inverted and attenuated.

Heh, you can't talk about graphs without showing them, so pls post your measuremetn after correction. ;)

I guess you are speaking about early refections directivity index? As listening window measured anechoically should be flat than your inverted ER directivity index should pretty much match PIR (predicted in-room response). Have you tried comparing your corrected measurement to PIR curve?

@thewas_ what are your thoughts on this? :)
 
Heh, you can't talk about graphs without showing them, so pls post your measuremetn after correction. ;)

Here are a bunch of curves.

1-Anechoic measurements (third-party)

JBL 305P mkii, measured by Amir :

JBL_01.png


Neumann KH-120, on axis, measured by kenrockwell.com

Neumann_00.png


Neumann kh-120, sound power, measured by Klippel.de :

Neumann_01_di.png


We can see that the kh-120 have a very flat on-axis response, but off axis, things get more chaotic.

The 305P shows the opposite behaviour : the on-axis response is not very good, but the off-axis response is faithful to the on-axis one.

Which leads to...

2-pre-equalization of the JBL 305P

Applying this correction (here shown upside down) to the JBL should transform them into a speaker that, on the paper, should have better performances than the KH-120 :

JBL_02.png


The reason why the correction stops after 4000 Hz is explained in this thread : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-305p-mkii-equalization.10874/
It is because the original measurement was wrong above that frequency, because of reflections on the protection system of the Klippel microphone. The last bump, at 14 kHz, was added later, according to MMM measurements of my own.

3-In room measurements

Here is how these speaker now measure. Mind that the treble switch of the Neumann is set to -1 during all the experiment. Its effect starts at 8 kHz. So it has very little impact on what we see here.
The treble switch of the JBL was at 0, but the bass switch was at -1.5 dB, as far as I remember.
The room has no acoustic treatment. The speakers stand in from of a very large window. The listening point is at 2.1 meters from the speakers, and the room is 6.2 x 3.4 x 2.5 meters.
Both measurements are taken using MMM with pink noise, inside a quite small area (+/- 20 cm around the listening position), then REW Var smoothing was applied.

Both_00.png


We can see three behaviours here.
Above 1000 Hz, each speaker has its own frequency response, that depends on its directivity (since the on-axis responses are now supposed to be the same, at least until 8 kHz).
Below 150 Hz, what we see is the effect of the bass reflex port position : in front of the Neumann, but in the back of the JBL. Room modes (54 and 69 Hz) are not fed the same way, nor is the first manifestation of SBIR (100 Hz).

Between these frequencies, the response of both speakers are identical, measured from the listening position.

4-Comparison between sound power and in-room response

These graphs are displayed without smoothing.

JBL_03.png


Neumann_02.png


We can clearly see the effect of the sound power curves on the final result.

It is difficult to listen to the speakers in this configuration because of the terrible frequency response below 200 Hz.

5 - Room equalization

The room equalization of the Neumann is active from 35 to 800 Hz. It was adjusted frequency by frequency over two years of daily listening. It is now stable and I haven't felt the need to change it for more than one year.

Neumann_03.png


The room eq of the JBL was done in 5 hours, as described in my previous messages. The result shown here is based on the hypothesis that the target curve, according to the directivity index that we saw in the spinorama, should be decreasing from 250 to 2000 Hz.
The level at 2000 Hz was set identical to the level without room eq. The level below 250 Hz was set similar the Neumann's.
The slope was guessed by ear.


JBL_04.png


Now I can listen to them and compare.

There is a difference in high frequencies. The JBL sound brighter, with a lot of detail. The Neumann sound distant, but natural. As if the musicians were playing farther away.
The female voices sound very natural on the Neumann, but not quite so on the JBL.
The JBL seem to have deeper bass.

6-Clone equalization

Then I tried a different approach. Instead of setting a room eq for each speaker, I tried to equalize the JBL exactly as the Neumann from the listening position, using a 31 bands graphic equalizer.

Here are the measurements :

Both_01.png


Though the curves look nearly identical, the voices sound a bit more natural on the Neumann.

In my opinion, it comes from the little bump at 350 Hz. Normally, such small deviations are barely audible, if at all, except if two conditions are present :
-it is the dominant frequency range on the recording
-it is the highest point of the whole frequency response
which are both true in this case.

We can also see that the difference curve is not very flat in high frequencies. My correction was not accurate enough.

7-Conclusion

What I can conclude from this experiment is that even when the speakers have a neutral on axis frequency response, the off axis response has a clearly audible effect on the sound, especially in the high frequencies.
Also, trying to equalize a speaker demands a very high accuracy.

And above all, if the front wall is not treated (here, it is the worst possible case : a window !), it has a very strong effect on the natural of human voices. The equalization of this effect, from 150 to 1000 Hz is possible in theory, but it takes a lot of time and demands an extreme accuracy. Here, this room correction is ok for the Neumann, but after 5 hours of work, I could not get it completely right on the JBL.

Last, here are the same measurements as above, but without smoothing. The effect of the window behind the speakers on the frequency response can be seen as strong vertical variations in the 100 - 500 Hz range. These have certainly an effect on the final result, and equalization can do nothing about it. (mind that the MMM area was a bit smaller than usual : 40 x 40 cm only, which makes the curve look a bit worse than it should).

Both_02.png
 
Nice measurements which confirm that the more we get away from the nearfield, the more the sound power of a loudspeaker dominates at the measured FR, that's why also smaller loudspeakers/monitors that are optimized for nearfield like the KH120 should be better used accordingly to the manufacturer recommendations which are 1.0 - 2.0 m (3’ - 6’) for the KH120.
 
Nice measurements which confirm that the more we get away from the nearfield, the more the sound power of a loudspeaker dominates at the measured FR, that's why also smaller loudspeakers/monitors that are optimized for nearfield like the KH120 should be better used accordingly to the manufacturer recommendations which are 1.0 - 2.0 m (3’ - 6’) for the KH120.

What does it mean for a speaker to be optimized for nearfield? If the drivers can integrate nicely, what else is there?
 
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