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Best IEMs identified in Harman (Olive) research paper

Jimbob54

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There are 32 dots on each graph, while 30 tested earphone models are listed in the OP and in Post #3. It seems to me that GaryH is saying that the circled IEMs in the OP, which have the highest actual preference score, are 'Harman Target' and 'Harman Target 2' (maybe EQ'd IEMs? I have not read the paper). It appears that both actual and predicted scores have been scaled so that the 'Harman Target' scores 100, and both the Targets cost a made-up $100. It also seems GaryH is saying that top two actual preference scorers with their native FR without EQ are what preload thinks of as #3 and #4, which correspond to the AKG K3003 at $1000 and AKG N20 at $130.
And interestingly, the k3003 measurements /reviews I recall seeing gave it a bit of a thrashing
 

fieldcar

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How does it compare to Aria? Shure ER2?
Graph wise on crinacle.com, the er2xr and arias look very close. That said, I misplaced my aria and ordered the Kato. The only thing I've heard outside of measurements is that this new driver in the kato has lower THD than most DD iems. I'm not expecting any sort of big upgrade over my er2xr or er2se's, but they look great. If you don't have a ton of funds, just get the aria if your preference is a warm Harman target. If you want to save some cash even more, the tripowin X HBB Mele's are pretty great for $50usd. They fit great and the wire is better than the aria's. They are near identical to the aria, but above 10KHz, they drop off, so they lack a bit of atmosphere and detail compared to the aria.

graph (4).png
graph (5).png
 

JohnYang1997

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How does it compare to Aria? Shure ER2?
A step up compared to both I would say. The 7k peak is ok on Aria but it's still there. The tonality is better than ER2, 4-7khz range, more natural sounding.
 

ObjectAudio

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Personally I don’t like the Harman IE target as it don’t sound like over the ears headphones adjust to OE Harman target.
Also we can see from the research papers the 50 to 70 preference group IEMs that all of them as an average have less energy in the 1to 5 KHz and less bass energy between 20 to 60 Hz.
These are the two regions that I think the Harman IE target issues are as it defines too much energy in these regions.
 
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preload

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For clarity, for those of you who say that you "don't like the Harman IE target," how did you figure that out? In other words, did you try out IEMs that exactly matched the Harman IE target? If so, were they measured by Harman/Olive/etc? Or were they measured by a third party using different equipment? I'm assuming it's the latter, but I want to make sure, and I'm interested in people's observations.
 
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preload

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There are 32 dots on each graph, while 30 tested earphone models are listed in the OP and in Post #3. It seems to me that GaryH is saying that the circled IEMs in the OP, which have the highest actual preference score, are 'Harman Target' and 'Harman Target 2' (maybe EQ'd IEMs? I have not read the paper). It appears that both actual and predicted scores have been scaled so that the 'Harman Target' scores 100, and both the Targets cost a made-up $100. It also seems GaryH is saying that top two actual preference scorers with their native FR without EQ (which preload refers to as #3 and #4) correspond to the AKG K3003 at $1000 and AKG N20 at $130.

Thanks - that all would make sense but it would require that we assume that Harman/Olive "made up" the prices for "Harman Target" and "Harman Target 2." I'm not sure I'm convinced that's what they would have done, and it would make sense that these two "dots" corresponded to actual IEMs on the list of tested IEMs. Unless you know otherwise - how might you know for sure (vs guessing)?
 

Jimbob54

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For clarity, for those of you who say that you "don't like the Harman IE target," how did you figure that out? In other words, did you try out IEMs that exactly matched the Harman IE target? If so, were they measured by Harman/Olive/etc? Or were they measured by a third party using different equipment? I'm assuming it's the latter, but I want to make sure, and I'm interested in people's observations.

The latter - Samsung buds plus- measured by Oratory. My experience of EQ quite a lot of both OE and IEM is that I find the OE Harman EQs bass too much but the IE EQs ridiculously so.

Just a bloated bassy mess https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdeudwzb955jrqw/Samsung SM-R175 Galaxy Buds+.pdf?dl=0
 

ObjectAudio

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For clarity, for those of you who say that you "don't like the Harman IE target," how did you figure that out? In other words, did you try out IEMs that exactly matched the Harman IE target? If so, were they measured by Harman/Olive/etc? Or were they measured by a third party using different equipment? I'm assuming it's the latter, but I want to make sure, and I'm interested in people's observations.
I have IEC711 coupler and eq a lot of IEMs to the Harman IE target.
Again you can also see the in Harman papers as I mention before that the preferred sound IEMs had less energy in the bass region and in the1 to 5 KHz range.
 

GaryH

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There are 32 dots on each graph, while 30 tested earphone models are listed in the OP and in Post #3. It seems to me that GaryH is saying that the circled IEMs in the OP, which have the highest actual preference score, are 'Harman Target' and 'Harman Target 2' (maybe EQ'd IEMs? I have not read the paper). It appears that both actual and predicted scores have been scaled so that the 'Harman Target' scores 100, and both the Targets cost a made-up $100. It also seems GaryH is saying that top two actual preference scorers with their native FR without EQ (which preload refers to as #3 and #4) correspond to the AKG K3003 at $1000 and AKG N20 at $130.

Thanks, this is indeed a nicely concise summary of what I was saying.

Thanks - that all would make sense but it would require that we assume that Harman/Olive "made up" the prices for "Harman Target" and "Harman Target 2." I'm not sure I'm convinced that's what they would have done, and it would make sense that these two "dots" corresponded to actual IEMs on the list of tested IEMs. Unless you know otherwise - how might you know for sure (vs guessing)?

I agree that it seems odd, but I can't see any other explanation. I suspect the prices of the 'Harman Target' and 'Harman Target 2' were just the price of the 'replicator IEM' used in the study (not sure what model that was).

From slides 94-98 in Sean Olive's presentation I linked previously, the average of all the ratings given to the Harman Target was 68.1, and for the Harman Target 2 it was 65.8. This seems to match with the (before scaling) preference values (vertical axis) for the two dots you circled in your OP.

Finally, there's this slide, which confirms that only 30 IEM models plus the Harman Target(s) were tested:

Screenshot_20211018-035659_Acrobat for Samsung.png
 

GaryH

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Also we can see from the research papers the 50 to 70 preference group IEMs that all of them as an average have less energy in the 1to 5 KHz and less bass energy between 20 to 60 Hz.
These are the two regions that I think the Harman IE target issues are as it defines too much energy in these regions.
Again you can also see the in Harman papers as I mention before that the preferred sound IEMs had less energy in the bass region and in the1 to 5 KHz range.

And yet the Harman target was preferred to all the IEMs in that 50-70 preference rating group by both trained and untrained listeners in the double-blind tests of the study, so they obviously didn't have those issues you speak of with too much energy in the bass or 1-5 kHz region of the Harman target...
 
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ObjectAudio

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And yet the Harman target was preferred to all the IEMs in that 50-70 preference rating group by both trained and untrained listeners in the double-blind tests of the study, so they obviously didn't have those issues you speak of with too much energy in the bass or 1-5 kHz region of the Harman target...
Did you actually listened to IEM eq to Harman IE target? did you actually listened to over the ear headphones eq to Harman OE target? if yes did they sound similar ?
For my ears they don’t sound similar.For me both targets results are different.
i will be happy to get feedback from people that tried it.
 
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GaryH

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Did you actually listened to IEM eq to Harman IE target? did you actually listened to over the ear headphones eq to Harman OE target? if yes did they sound similar ?
For my ears they don’t sound similar.For me both targets results are different.
i will be happy to get feedback from people that tried it.

Yes. Yes. Tonally similar? Yes. Exactly the same? Of course not, because the sound from OE headphones includes your personal PRTF (pinna-related transfer function), whereas IEMs by definition bypass this. Just because the most preferred frequency responses from the research are the OE and IE Harman targets, does not necessarily entail they will sound exactly the same.
 

ObjectAudio

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Yes. Yes. Tonally similar? Yes. Exactly the same? Of course not, because the sound from OE headphones includes your personal PRTF (pinna-related transfer function), whereas IEMs by definition bypass this. Just because the most preferred frequency responses from the research are the OE and IE Harman targets, does not necessarily entail they will sound exactly the same.

Who suggested exactly the same? I said that they don’t have similar tone in the regions I mentioned.Good for you that you find them similar as for me they are not , and it will be interesting to get more feedback from other that tried it.
 

Merkurio

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Who suggested exactly the same? I said that they don’t have similar tone in the regions I mentioned.Good for you that you find them similar as for me they are not , and it will be interesting to get more feedback from other that tried it.

Unit variations in the IEMs measured also play an important role, as well as the natural variations of our inner ear canal.

That's why I never take an EQ profile that I find online as an ultimate resource, but more like a starter point to work on my own preset (according to my own perception and tolerance to certain peaks/dips).
 

ObjectAudio

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Unit variations in the IEMs measured also play an important role, as well as the natural variations of our inner ear canal.

That's why I never take an EQ profile that I find online as an ultimate resource, but more like a starter point to work on my own preset (according to my own perception and tolerance to certain peaks/dips).
As I suggested I have IEC711 coupler that I am using for my IEMs eq.
Also I will mention that there are few IEMs with very small variations between them like the Etymotic ER4XR That can be a good platform to eq to Harman target with information you find online.
 

Zim

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The latter - Samsung buds plus- measured by Oratory. My experience of EQ quite a lot of both OE and IEM is that I find the OE Harman EQs bass too much but the IE EQs ridiculously so.

Just a bloated bassy mess https://www.dropbox.com/s/zdeudwzb955jrqw/Samsung SM-R175 Galaxy Buds+.pdf?dl=0

The Harman target Oratory displays for both IE and OE are with maximum bass applied I believe; what I personally call Harman with Bass Boost.
Harman-Neutral would be adjusting the 105 Hz Low-Shelf in his EQ's down a few dB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

From Sean Olive's Twitter.
E405Lo7UcAA8tUb.jpg
 

Jimbob54

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The Harman target Oratory displays for both IE and OE are with maximum bass applied I believe; what I personally call Harman with Bass Boost.
Harman-Neutral would be adjusting the 105 Hz Low-Shelf in his EQ's down a few dB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

From Sean Olive's Twitter.
View attachment 159895
Correct, but for the buds plus profile I linked above there is no low shelf! They hit the bass perfectly in stock set up and it sounds (to me) horrible. I do indeed shelf down the bass on the odd times I use for music (rather than cat proof zoom meetings)

With regards to the OP- obviously the Buds Plus werent in the tests referred to but with an Oratory calculated pref score pre EQ of 77 would land the top spot. And (to me) sound horrid. Im really not sure how anyone else could like them either without some adjustment.

Put shortly, my laymans view is that the in ear Harman targets are less useful/ more divisive than the Over ear (where I still find the bass too much but could live with it).
 
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GaryH

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The Harman target Oratory displays for both IE and OE are with maximum bass applied I believe; what I personally call Harman with Bass Boost.
Harman-Neutral would be adjusting the 105 Hz Low-Shelf in his EQ's down a few dB. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

From Sean Olive's Twitter.
View attachment 159895

No, the target Oratory displays and EQs to is the Harman target (no 'bass boost' added to it) i.e. the bold-green curve above, which the majority prefer and perceive as neutral.
 
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